what are you comparing? swim times vs pull w/ pull buoy?

I'm assuming that is the case. I'm usually 2-3 secs slower per 50 with a pullbuoy than when swimming. That's not the drag from the buoy itself (they have almost none), just that I can't kick. that lack of kick does a couple of things, a) less propulsion, and b) kick isn't driving rotation, so swim a little flatter and a bit less lat engagement.

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as to the second part of your question, are they still useful?

yes. for building upper body power, for isolation of the catch and pull and working on that. There is a reason that every elite level swimmer ever does pull sets and kick sets. Because sometimes you want to train the pull and kick in isolation.

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Yes, comparing with and without pull buoy. Cheers for your input...makes sense.

I'm quite a bit slower with a buoy, but still use it a little during my warmup. It's a good 2-3 seconds per hundred for me.

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Funny, I hold a faster and more constant pace much longer with a pull buoy, just like wearing a wetsuit. Maybe 1:30/100yd rather than 1:35 without. I've assumed that the goal is to find that same body position without it, legs up, slight kick. I can see where, once you've attained the proper body position, the kick would assist with timing and propulsion, soooooo....if one is faster with the buoy, is that confirmation that dropping the legs is the real issue? And am I correct to think that someday (soon) that comfortable feeling one experiences with a pullbuoy can be enjoyed without it?

M

It always easier to swim with the buoy. I often use one for easy swims between hard efforts. But yes, if you are faster with the buoy, then you are probably doing something undesirable in your swim, either dropping legs, scissor kick, fish tailing, or something else.

Now some folks are faster with the buoy even though they don't have any obvious flaws, other than a weak kick.

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This Swim Smooth video will show you why a pull buoy is slower (also compares swim skin, wetsuit and speedo):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufBGPASHxak

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I'm always slower with a buoy- comes down to I use my kick to control body roll, and without that snap of the foot to send me rolling the other way, I have to go to a slower way of doing that.

I must be a bit weird. I kick (albeit 2 beat) with the pb. Don't use band obviously. I prefer using one mainly to help my body position and mimic how using a wetsuit affects feels in terms of keeping my legs up and allowing an easy kick.

A pull buoy can also correct the habit of over rotation from the bringing of elbow or arm behind the spine during the recovery phase. I've seen people roll themselves over when they first began with a pull buoy because their elbows/arms would swing behind their spine. While swimming without a buoy they had a compensating kick for their poor arm action that kept their rollover from occurring. The pull buoy was instructional in these cases.

While swimming I like to get information as much as a workout. While a buoy can be a crutch, it offers a swimmer more information such as:

How much energy could be saved if the legs didn't have to kick. However this is learned because I have seen people put on a pull buoy and still kick without realizing they were still kicking.

How swimming would be if the legs were high in the water. Once aware of higher legs with a buoy, core strength, flexibility and kick can be developed to achieve the higher legs. Sometimes when tired I check my kick by letting my heels surface behind me to see how much my legs have dropped in the water from overall fatigue.

As Jason noted, a buoy helps to drive the focus to the arms.

For most triathletes with stiff ankles and feet like hammers in the water kicking is a poor return on oxygen. Most swimmers and triathletes are faster with a buoy, especially over distance. While kicking might help with 50s and 100s, I think the energy saved beyond 500 would make a buoy or two beat kick faster.

For even more information, try a small pair of swim paddles with a buoy. That might seem like two "crutches" that can't be legally used later; yet, for the sake of information, you might notice things in your stroke that you otherwise wouldn't. For me, paddles with pull buoy seems to move the stroke action even further in front of me rather than under me which I prefer and seems to help my times.

What you notice from swimming with a buoy can become a goal worth attaining without use of the buoy.

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Ask Katie Ledecky how moving from a two to six beat kicked worked out for her in the 800m in 2012.

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Most swimmers and triathletes are faster with a buoy, especially over distance. While kicking might help with 50s and 100s, I think the energy saved beyond 500 would make a buoy or two beat kick faster.

I'm never faster with a buoy or a 2 beat kick, over any distance. I might be an outlier, not sure, but the trend at the elite level is that everyone is going towards a 6 beat (eg ledecky, cochrane) or at least a hybrid 2/6 beat kick (Yang) for the 800 and 1500. everyone does 6 beat for the 400 and under.

other than that minor detail, I gnerally agree with you...

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I used to be faster with a pull buoys, but in the last 2 seasons I'm now slower with one. I think it's a good sign. Too bad I'm getting older so it seems like I'm still slowing down a little. A drop in VO2max seems to hit swimmer faster than run or bike... but probaly only because I train it less.

I should use it more. It definitely allows you to really focus on the catch and what your upper body is doing.

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I have certainly seen some very fast swimmers who can manage a pull time equal to that of their swim splits, but not for nearly as long. Once you learn how to drive rotation from the kick plus the rhythm benefits it's awfully difficult to swim as fast with a buoy. Once I got the kick down I gave my buoy away!

I agree. It's only in the last year that I really started to "feel" how the kick drives rotation and offsets the yaw action of the pull. In swimming it's just amazing how fast being efficient can make you go. I have an athlete now that only has an FTP around 230-240 and is will run around 1:45, but despite being a self taught swimmer, will probably swim a 28:xx a 70.3 this season. The natural tendency might be to back off the swimming and focus on the bike. But I think he can really make this his strength and if you have a great swim, you set yourself up for a strong bike & run.

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I still think triathletes resistance to stretching their ankles is the single biggest reason they abort trying to develop a kick. I used to be one of those that thought I could never get my ankles loose enough until I just made the decision to stretch them every day for about five minutes when I got up and before I went to bed and over About six months suddenly I was flexible enough to have a kick. I found once I was able to get my feet and ankles in a proper orientation the effort level for the kick went down exponentially.

and presumably it had no negative impact on your bike/run?

Here's something that puzzles me, I am ALOT slower with a pullbuoy, I would say around 15s per 100 scm. And I have a fairly weak kick. I'm not a fast swimmer by any means and still getting faster every session but the only thing I can come up with is that the buoy is too small and my legs are still sinking causing too much drag. Are 2 buoy's the answer? Or am I missing something. I've mostly stopped using them because it's hard for me to concentrate on the pull when there's an instant break going on, whereas in the past I really felt like it helped to isolate that feeling.

if you are 15s per 100 slower with the pullbouy, there are multiple issues (most likely)..

pullbouy could be too small, but you shouldn't need 2. just make sure you aren't using a junior sized one.

you still need to think about good alignment. you may not rotate correctly with the buoy without the leverage of your legs, you may start overreaching, you may "snake" more without your legs to provide stability. your stroke mechanics might change, your breath timing might be thrown off....

it comes down to doing it a lot. also, your speed with the buoy doesn't "really" matter at the end of the day, there aren't any pullbuoy races. just work on good pull mechanics, alingment, and rotation, and keep swimming hard.

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Thanks for the fast reply. I am certain there are a lot of things going on, but your list of things actually scares me into even touching the buoy for fear of learning more wrong things than learning right things haha. Kidding aside, I'm gonna try and focus on some of those other points instead of just the pulling, or the time. The feeling of pulling the water is just a very nice feeling :) which I kind of missed the last couple of times I used it. I forgot to add that I am rather tall and my thighs are about the size of those prosciutto's you see hanging around at your local butcher. I even tried putting the buoy a bit lower than normal but that didn't work either. I *think* it's a normal size one, at my pool you can just use the ones they have lying around.

snaaijert wrote:

Here's something that puzzles me, I am ALOT slower with a pullbuoy, I would say around 15s per 100 scm. And I have a fairly weak kick. I'm not a fast swimmer by any means and still getting faster every session but the only thing I can come up with is that the buoy is too small and my legs are still sinking causing too much drag. Are 2 buoy's the answer? Or am I missing something. I've mostly stopped using them because it's hard for me to concentrate on the pull when there's an instant break going on, whereas in the past I really felt like it helped to isolate that feeling.

I have two. Maybe you are just using the "wrong" one for you. I only use the one below and find it markedly better than the more slight red Speedo one I have:

I've recently replaced my pull buoy with the new blueseventy Core Short, give them a try.

Thank you both, I also just saw that Roka is having a Black Friday sale until Dec 1, selling their buyoancy short for $55 now so I might jump on that, a little cheaper than the Blueseventy one and read similarly good things about it.

There wouldn't be one swimmer on ST male or female (female goes without saying) who is on the same planet as Katie L. Sorry, but an absurd comparison. Swimmers - and WR level ones in particular - bear no fundamental resemblance to any AG triathlete full stop. Comparing what she does is like comparing TDF riders or oly marathoners to the rest of us. Stay real!