Spring 3 hr marathon fun

Mar 2, 17 10:22

Post #1 of 20 (2339 views)

Typically there are some shooting for 3 hrs during the fall marathon season, but I thought I would put this out there and see if the majority is correct. I will shoot for 3 hrs Sunday, but weigh in on my chances.
Some context, but I understand it is not the full picture. I will do my best to provide an update, good or bad.

Fall 2002 1st Tri Olympic

2:48

Spring 2003 1st Road Race 10K

00:43:21

Spring 2005 10K PR

00:37:56

Spring 2005 1/2 Marathon PR

1:24:40

Winter 2005 50K

5:35

Spring 2006 IM

11:33

Fall 2006 Olympic PR

2:08

Sabatical

Spring 2012 marathon

3:21

Fit. Can I do 3 hrs?
Spring 2013 marathon

3:32

Let's try it again. Was heat was the problem?
Fall 2013 marathon

3:25

Found out the heat was not the problem
Spring 2014 100 miler

29:44

Fit. Can I do this in 30 hrs?
…received coaching
Fall 2014 marathon

3:14

Wheels fell off at mile 18
Fall 2015 marathon

3:06

Wheels were off by mile 23
Spring 2016 100 miler

27:14

Winter 2016 50 miler

8:35

Some good weekend miles, a few mid week track sessions and stayed healthy. Almost too few aches and pains, like I was not doing enough
Spring 2017 Marathon (3/5)

Over/Under is 3:04, but anyone think I have 3 hrs in me? Course has almost 1,200 feet elevation
Temps hopefully will be ideal, starting temp around 40

Re: Spring 3 hr marathon fun [Owenmiller] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 17 10:43

Post #2 of 20 (2317 views)

What it will take is really strong focus as you go through those tough segments. There will be miles where it is easy to lose 15 or 20 seconds whether they are hilly or you just kind of lose your focus for a bit. To take your 10 min/mile ultra pace and convert it to a consistent 6:50ish pace for the marathon will take some real mental will power.

If we were 2 months out I would say to be sure you did a fair bit of sub marathon paced workouts to balance the ultra work you have been doing.

Re: Spring 3 hr marathon fun [Owenmiller] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 17 10:46

Post #3 of 20 (2308 views)

I always like these threads :-) I think its really difficult to predict based on info you provided. Based on your historic times in 1/2 and 10k you should be physically capable - but how was weight and training then vs now?

Recent races were ultras - and comparing those times to your shorter times (even marathons) it seems you might not have been training to your potential for the ultras? (No disrespect - I salute anyone finishing a 100miler! It just seems you might fall more Off hour pace related to your marathon-time than a runner more ised to high milage (but Im speculating here)

Back to the marathon - what has your training this winter been? What pace would you run a 30min tempo run at?

Re: Spring 3 hr marathon fun [Owenmiller] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 17 11:05

Post #4 of 20 (2281 views)

No 10k's or half marathons lately? That'd be a better predictor than 50 and 100 milers. You've likely got a great base, but the concern would be that your body may be conditioned to run 10 minute miles when what you need is to have it ready to run 6:52 per mile. Not to be a Debbie Downer but I wouldn't bet money on you going sub 3

Matt

Re: Spring 3 hr marathon fun [Owenmiller] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 17 14:24

Post #5 of 20 (2202 views)

15 years of race history is helpful, but not really an indicator of current fitness.

What has your weekly mileage been? How many days a week? What pace are you doing your long runs? How long was your longest run? Any mid-week medium-long runs?

I would agree with what others have said. Solid base, but my guess is mostly LSD stuff. I'll take the over - unless you've been averaging 60+ mpw and supplementing your track sessions with substantial mileage (10-20 mpw) around 7-7:30 min pace.

Re: Spring 3 hr marathon fun [mstange22] [ In reply to ]

Mar 3, 17 5:55

Post #6 of 20 (2106 views)

Our first confirmed over vote. Feels like the sentiment is for over 3:04. The majority is usually and unfortunately pretty accurate.

I have not been putting in the 60 mile weeks. Typical run has been 9 miles, 3 days during the week and occasionally getting out both Saturday and Sunday. Long run pace has typically been 7:30 - 7:45. Longest run was 20. I rarely run with GPS and I have not logged my miles the last couple years (probably one of the reason for the under-performance in the ultras :) ). I love the endurance stuff so I try to keep it fun instead of having it be regimented. Hopefully this means I will still be doing this in 25 years.

I did a 5k last summer at 5:54 pace. I could probably do a tempo @6 min pace for 30 minutes, but it would be race effort. 6 minute pace feels like a plateau I need to break through.

Smart thing would be to put my energy into giving a good run at it this fall, but it will be good test of fitness and I will have a story to tell.
It is tough to put in 20 milers, especially during the typically humid August/September mornings.

Trying number six...here we go.

Keep the votes coming in. Over/Under 3:04.

Re: Spring 3 hr marathon fun [Owenmiller] [ In reply to ]

Mar 3, 17 6:56

Post #7 of 20 (2061 views)

I will play, I would vote under 3:04 but unfortunately unless the stars align not under 3:00. Hoping the starts do align. On the good you have experience on your side, and from your previous marathons and ultras you know what the dark miles are like near the end of a marathon. I think getting under three will be determined how you can handle getting well out of you comfort zone from mile 20+.

I do not not think you need excessive 6 minute per mile tempo runs to go sub three but solid runs at or slightly faster than 6:48 per mile. To me the effort to run 6 minute per mile is much greater than 6:48. Other things i have seen work is running your last 4-5 miles of your long runs at target race pace. To me that adapts your body to knowing what it is like to push yourself at race pace when tired.

Good luck, please let us know how it goes.

Best,
GS

Re: Spring 3 hr marathon fun [Owenmiller] [ In reply to ]

Mar 3, 17 10:24

Post #8 of 20 (2003 views)

I don't think you need to be able to tempo at sub-6 to break 3 hours in the marathon.

Realistically, you should be shooting for a 6:45 pace to break 3 hours (given GPS error and running longer than the perfect line of the course). Your tempo pace should be just a bit faster than half marathon pace (~MP-20), so maybe somewhere around 6:15-6:20 for a 35-45 minute training run (or a 15k / one-hour race).

Speed is not your limiting factor. IMO it's specific endurance, which may sound odd since you're an ultra guy and can probably run all day. You certainly have the potential to break 3 hours. Just need to put in the work. LRs, MLRs, the occasional LT / interval workout and a steady diet of miles to support your key efforts. And yes, it sucks doing it in the heat & humidity of the summer - As Pre said, if you want to do anything great, you gotta get out there in the morning.

Re: Spring 3 hr marathon fun [Owenmiller] [ In reply to ]

Mar 3, 17 12:00

Post #9 of 20 (1963 views)

The course makes a HUGE difference.

1200 ft of total climbing is actually pretty significant for a marathon - that's double most of the flatter ones. If there's no net decline, that alone may prevent you from a big PR.

Re: Spring 3 hr marathon fun [Owenmiller] [ In reply to ]

Mar 3, 17 13:08

Post #10 of 20 (1925 views)

I'll vote over for the reasons in my initial post. Now go use it as motivation. Good luck and let us know how it goes

Matt

Re: Spring 3 hr marathon fun [Owenmiller] [ In reply to ]

Mar 5, 17 17:17

Post #11 of 20 (1801 views)

Wow, ugly, that hurt.
3:16:20
Ran with a nice pack through 13 @6:52 pace. The pack blew up and I was up at the front.
At 17 I knew it was heading downhill. I hoped I could dig deep mentally, but physically I got beat down. I had to stop twice to let the hamstrings stop cramping. I started feeling the twinges early, like mile 18 early. Nutrition was good. Stomach took everything great and fluid intake was fine.
Still here to fight another day. I will need big mileage if I am going to take this serious.

Re: Spring 3 hr marathon fun [Owenmiller] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 17 1:22

Post #12 of 20 (1736 views)

good on you for trying:-)

I bet you could break three hours if you put in 6 months of bigger milage, and get some speedwork in the last 3 months.

I'm trying for my spring marathon in end of april - 3:07 last year and hoping to break 3 some year - but wont be this year I'm afraid! Haven't run anything more than last year, and dont expect to improve 7 mins on the same training base...!

Re: Spring 3 hr marathon fun [Owenmiller] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 17 5:11

Post #13 of 20 (1674 views)

When I've been in shape to run sub 3 (never actually done it, but have run a 1:20 half), I'd been doing quite a bit of speedwork mixed in with the long runs. I also found that doing a mid week medium-long run of 13-15 miles helped with durability near the end of the marathon.

Did you follow any sort of marathon training plan? I've used both Daniels and Pfitz plans, and feel that the Pfitz 18/70 plan could put you in a good spot for a shot at sub 3. Follow it well and good things should happen.

Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
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Coaching: https://bybtricoaching.com/ - accepting athletes for 2023

Re: Spring 3 hr marathon fun [Owenmiller] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 17 9:26

Post #14 of 20 (1601 views)

I disagree with your conclusion. I think you should run more often than 4-5 times a week, not always at least 9 miles either.
You will need some speed work too.

I would be looking at 6-7 runs per week, about 70 mpw, long run of 18 miles or more, a medium long run of up to 18 miles during the week, 1 longer intervals session (4x2k at 10k pace or 2x5k at HM pace are good) and everything else easy, sometimes with some strides.

Pick a flat marathon too!

Re: Spring 3 hr marathon fun [Owenmiller] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 17 11:07

Post #15 of 20 (1556 views)

Good for you for giving it a shot.

I didn't comment on the course profile in previous posts and that probably makes a huge difference as well. Run a course like Chicago, Boston or CIM and you'll probably get 5-10 minutes right there.

Re: Spring 3 hr marathon fun [Owenmiller] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 17 16:45

Post #16 of 20 (1504 views)

Just found this thread, you've done nowhere near the overall volume or the structure you need in order to run under 3:00.

It's really a pretty simple equation for someone with your progression. But 4-5 days a week with not much volume is never going to do it.

https://markmcdermott.substack.com

Re: Spring 3 hr marathon fun [marklemcd] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 17 16:57

Post #17 of 20 (1498 views)

marklemcd wrote:

Just found this thread, you've done nowhere near the overall volume or the structure you need in order to run under 3:00.

It's really a pretty simple equation for someone with your progression. But 4-5 days a week with not much volume is never going to do it.

I concur. It may have only taken me six times to figure this out, but I will put in the work for the next attempt. I can't promise a mid week 18 miler, but I will put in more frequency into the plan and bigger weeks.

Re: Spring 3 hr marathon fun [Owenmiller] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 17 19:10

Post #18 of 20 (1466 views)

Congrats on giving it a go. As said earlier, you need more volume to break 3 hours. I have done the phitz plan and the Hanson plan, but I'll give you my hybrid plan that has worked well for me several times since then.

I like the phitz schedule and weekly long run. I also like the Hanson weekday workouts. Tuesday is a run with increasing miles at 10 seconds below Marathon pace. Thursday is a marathon pace run. That being said, here is my simple marathon training schedule. Since I already have a decent base, this plan only needs about 8-12 weeks.

M: rest
T: 9 miles easy
W: 11 miles with several @ :10 below MP
T: 9 miles easy
F: 11 miles with several @ MP
S: 9 miles easy
S: Long run 16-20. Always a faster second half. Sometimes really fast.

What I do: http://app.strava.com/athletes/345699

Re: Spring 3 hr marathon fun [Printer] [ In reply to ]

Mar 7, 17 9:01

Post #19 of 20 (1397 views)

Printer, you need more work at faster than MP if you're only training for a run. You have to get your legs used to running a lot faster than MP so you can be more efficient at MP.

If I were you, I'd structure that week a tad differently, more like this:

M: rest
T: 6-8 easy
W: 12-14 miles moderate, 30ish seconds slower than MP
T: 6-8 easy
F: True threshold, warm up and do something like 3 x 2 miles at threshold (~25 seconds faster than MP) with 2-3 minutes recovery
S: 6 miles easy
S: Long run 16-20. Always a faster second half. Sometimes really fast.

Do 100 yard striders on the easy days.

https://markmcdermott.substack.com

Re: Spring 3 hr marathon fun [Owenmiller] [ In reply to ]

Mar 7, 17 9:05

Post #20 of 20 (1391 views)

Definitely don't need a midweek 18 miler. But doing 12-14 midweek each week at the proper intensity will do wonders.

Back when I was running in the 2:30s my weeks were structured like this:

M: 10-12 miles about 30-40s slower than MP
T: Threshold/10kpace/vo2 workout, depending on where in the plan I was
W: Easy/strides
T: Medium long between 12-15 miles, same pace as M
F: Secondary workout, often times I'd do 10 miles with the middle six about 10 seconds slower than MP
S: Long run
S: easy/off - strides

For someone at your volume level I'd knock it back a bit and maybe not make thursday thru Sat so hard, but the gist would be the same.

https://markmcdermott.substack.com

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