Why not train at %FTP relative to what bike you're riding? I don't know - I'm just asking. That makes sense to me. Especially if you think that your TT position limits your power?

Carl, since climbing is "sitting up" (relatively) vs TT in aero, would it not be most useful to use your climbing number as the basis for road racing and TT number as the basis for TT pacing ?

That's what I assume too, and already train @ a few less watts on TT bike.

As you said, threshold testing for running is a bit more troublesome, particularly once you start racing a lot. I think the best option for most amateur triathletes is to monitor changes in pace during key workouts, and adjust theoretical "threshold" accordingly a la Daniel's charts. As fitness improves, athletes often (usually unconsciously) advance their pace in an effort to maintain RPE. When you find yourself banging up against the upper limit of a zone, or going faster than prescribed pace without meaning to, that is a sign it is time to advance theortetical "threshold".

The other option is replacing a hard / interval workout with the local running club's weekly 5k. (Not saying you have to do it every week, obviously) I did this for both myself and a few athletes last summer to very good effect. It is short enough to run hard, and also short enough that you recover quickly. Put the result the estimator into the run threshold calculator in Apollo (it's in the Zones area under Athlete Profile (file menu)). It works off an equation similar to Daniel's V-Dot charts.

Phil
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Dr. Philip Skiba
Scientific Training for Endurance Athletes now available on Amazon!

Are you really climbing that much though? This means that all of your interval training is also done in the hills, right?

I'm probably not the best to ask wrt the most effective use of a PM in a road race since my sole focus is tri. I think anyone can address the training piece and Fooshee's advice makes sense to me. I might add terrain to the equation too. IOW, if you're really going to be doing interval stuff on a road bike in the hills then I'd base it off of the latter #. Personally, I tend to do a lot of interval stuff just based on RPE and it almost always ends up very close my target anyway. If and when it doesn't, which is rare, I typically will know within the first 10min.

Not sure that really helps...

Thanks, Chris

Would running a 5 or 10K every month outside of race season not cover it? Once you are in race season, you have actual racing paces to come up with your training pace guidelines. Aside from an Ironman it is pretty easy to determine your training paces off of the actual paces achieved in sprint, olympic or well executed half Ironmans? It probably would not hurt most triathletes to throw in a 5 or 10K running if they have more than a 4 week gap between races anyway. As Fleck has pointed out repeatedly, on the balance the running performance of triathletes by and large is lacking and part of that stems from simply not racing enough. There are many things that athletes learn in racing that you simply cannot replicate in training.

What's interesting from my observation, is that many triathlete runners run way beyond their capabilities during what should be easy training days.

Some people like to monitor their bike fitness by 3min all-out test. Start in a full sprint, go as hard as you can for 3 min. You'll theoretically "burn through" your AWC and be at your threshold power at the end of the 3 min. I haven't tried it, but I've heard the results track well with Monod and other longer tests. Sounds handy, since the training stress is low enough to fit into your week somewhere.

Ever heard of anyone doing the all-out 3 min test for running?

Love it. Nice dose of reality... :-)

Hey Dev,

See below...


Sure would.


I'm not sure this is particularly clear. Triathlon race paces tend to fall a bit below open race paces. While I think they are quite good for evaluating the strength of the training program (i.e. you are better or you are not better), I think they leave just a little bit to be desired in terms of training prescription.


Everyone is obviously entitled to their opinion, but I think I would disagree with this. It is my observation that most triathletes just don't have the kind of time (or understanding of training principles) it takes to train everything well. In point of fact, with two notable exceptions, my athletes have seen great improvements by racing less and training better. By better, I mean more specifically, and more consistently. It may or may not mean more in terms of volume; often it is less.


I think it is tough to say. I know many athletes who fit that description. I also know many triathletes who over-report what they do / how much they do :-)

Best,

Phil
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Dr. Philip Skiba
Scientific Training for Endurance Athletes now available on Amazon!

"...Triathlon race paces tend to fall a bit below open race paces...."

My observation and what I've found that correlate well for me and a few others (Sample size N<10, all experienced runners and triathletes):

• Triathlon sprint tri 5K speed ~ open 10K pace, maybe a touch slower
• Olympic tri 10K speed ~ open 21k pace
• Half Ironman 21 K speed ~ open marathon pace

Assume good execution for all and I think we are within the ballpark of a few seconds per kilometer. From this you can get a reasonable estimate of viable training paces.

Dev

I have heard of this, and I have set up some of my models in RaceDay on this basis.

The concept has actually been studied by / published by the good folks at the University of Exeter. One of the papers they published showed that the subjects burned through their W' (that is really the term in use now, rather than AWC) within 3 minutes of all out, unpaced cycling exercise. One of the interesting things coming out of some related work was that great sprinters do not necessarily have a greater W'. Rather, they have the ability to burn through their W' more quickly.

Phil
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Dr. Philip Skiba
Scientific Training for Endurance Athletes now available on Amazon!

and


...are the things that concern me most :-). However, what you suggest is not unreasonable.

Phil
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Dr. Philip Skiba
Scientific Training for Endurance Athletes now available on Amazon!

That's why sample size is N<10. However, you can get close without experience if execution on race day is good. The experienced triathlete runners just have a better shot at converging to these paces.

>>Are you really climbing that much though?
On road bike, generally 800-1000 ft / 10 miles for training. Racing depends on time of the year

>>This means that all of your interval training is also done in the hills, right?
Not necessarily. On TT bike it's generally flats, on road it's more often on a hill but might also be going between them

Funny, you took the words right out of my mouth which is why I always ask people for training load data. Most people lie and I don't necessarily mean intentionally. :-)

I was redirected to this thread, I know this is an old thread, but packed with info

I'd say this is pretty close to my pacing in triathlons.

Bumping this to ask if this book is still valuable? Has much changed in the several years since first published? Has it been revised/updated?

Yes, the book is still very valuable.

I'd say it's biggest value is how simple it is to read. A great introduction to training with power