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Single leg pedalling.
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 For single leg training purposes how does a counterweight system differ from a fixed wheel ?
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Re: Single leg pedalling. [perfection] [ In reply to ]
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perfection wrote:
For single leg training purposes how does a counterweight system differ from a fixed wheel ?

It increases the power requirement of the leg extensors and decreases the requirement of the leg flexors.

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Single leg pedalling. [perfection] [ In reply to ]
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A fixed wheel offers the same resistance across the pedal stroke, and becomes a balanced flywheel. If you stop pedalling and pull your feet of the pedals, the pedals would spin a long time due to the flywheel.

A counterweight on a pedal would offer more resistance when the weight is at the bottom (you have to lift it), and less when the counterweight is past top dead center, because gravity would pull it down. If you stop pedalling, the crank would stop with the weight at the bottom.

A weight attached to the BB would offer the same as a fixed wheel: a balanced flywheel.

Lifting the weight requires you to push down more. Leg extensions and squats, basically. More stomp, less spin.

Lifting the weight requires more energy for half the pedal stroke, but you get it back when the weight drops and pulls the chain and turns the wheel for you. You don't have to use your "lift" muscles.
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Re: Single leg pedalling. [perfection] [ In reply to ]
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It doubles the accuracy of my power meter... on one side at least..
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Re: Single leg pedalling. [uo5nVEtj9] [ In reply to ]
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uo5nVEtj9 wrote:
A fixed wheel offers the same resistance across the pedal stroke, and becomes a balanced flywheel. If you stop pedalling and pull your feet of the pedals, the pedals would spin a long time due to the flywheel.

A counterweight on a pedal would offer more resistance when the weight is at the bottom (you have to lift it), and less when the counterweight is past top dead center, because gravity would pull it down. If you stop pedalling, the crank would stop with the weight at the bottom.

A weight attached to the BB would offer the same as a fixed wheel: a balanced flywheel.

Lifting the weight requires you to push down more. Leg extensions and squats, basically. More stomp, less spin.

Lifting the weight requires more energy for half the pedal stroke, but you get it back when the weight drops and pulls the chain and turns the wheel for you. You don't have to use your "lift" muscles.



I am only interested in the effect on the upstroke of the working single leg where pulling up is sometimes done during two legged pedalling. Your last sentence above demonstrates that during two legged pedalling, when you know how to correctly unweight the rising pedal without any conscious pulling up, you can remove most of that wasted energy required to push the idling leg up and gain the advantage of the weight of that leg on its down stroke.
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Re: Single leg pedalling. [perfection] [ In reply to ]
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perfection wrote:
I am only interested in the effect on the upstroke of the working single leg where pulling up is sometimes done during two legged pedalling. Your last sentence above demonstrates that during two legged pedalling, when you know how to correctly unweight the rising pedal without any conscious pulling up, you can remove most of that wasted energy required to push the idling leg up and gain the advantage of the weight of that leg on its down stroke.

I agree with the whole statement except "remove".

You need to expend energy to lift the "dead" leg. If the leg isn't lifted 30-40 cm, it cannot push down on the pedal. Either using that leg's hip flexors (and other muscles) or the other leg's quads (and other muscles.) The leg needs to go up against gravity. You will spend the energy. You cannot remove the work requirement unless you remove gravity. The work needed is the same, no matter which muscles you use. The only potential difference is metabolic cost.

You could, in theory, use a string and your arm muscles to lift your dead leg, but you must lift your dead leg, and that work requirement is determined by leg weight and gravity and physics.

To answer your original question: you store the work needed in the crank counterweight using your quads when pushing your only leg down, and lifting the crank weight. You don't remove the energy required to lift your leg. You spend it half a pedal stroke in advance.
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Re: Single leg pedalling. [uo5nVEtj9] [ In reply to ]
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uo5nVEtj9 wrote:
perfection wrote:
I am only interested in the effect on the upstroke of the working single leg where pulling up is sometimes done during two legged pedalling. Your last sentence above demonstrates that during two legged pedalling, when you know how to correctly unweight the rising pedal without any conscious pulling up, you can remove most of that wasted energy required to push the idling leg up and gain the advantage of the weight of that leg on its down stroke.


I agree with the whole statement except "remove".

You need to expend energy to lift the "dead" leg. If the leg isn't lifted 30-40 cm, it cannot push down on the pedal. Either using that leg's hip flexors (and other muscles) or the other leg's quads (and other muscles.) The leg needs to go up against gravity. You will spend the energy. You cannot remove the work requirement unless you remove gravity. The work needed is the same, no matter which muscles you use. The only potential difference is metabolic cost.

You could, in theory, use a string and your arm muscles to lift your dead leg, but you must lift your dead leg, and that work requirement is determined by leg weight and gravity and physics.

To answer your original question: you store the work needed in the crank counterweight using your quads when pushing your only leg down, and lifting the crank weight. You don't remove the energy required to lift your leg. You spend it half a pedal stroke in advance.

Well said!

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Post deleted by Andrew Coggan [ In reply to ]
Re: Single leg pedalling. [perfection] [ In reply to ]
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Unless you only have one leg, why would you cycle with just one?
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Re: Single leg pedalling. [tigermilk] [ In reply to ]
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tigermilk wrote:
Unless you only have one leg, why would you cycle with just one?

Personally, I've found the inclusion of some one legged drills on the trainer quite fruitful, and feel that my pedal stroke is much smoother and "rounder" as a result.

I do an easy 45 min session each week that includes several 1 min periods using each leg as well as some high cadence spins, and I would recommend it to others. Especially those with less cycling experience.
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Re: Single leg pedalling. [tigermilk] [ In reply to ]
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Coaches put then on your schedule when they run out of new workouts......but pretty much useless.
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Re: Single leg pedalling. [tigermilk] [ In reply to ]
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tigermilk wrote:
Unless you only have one leg, why would you cycle with just one?


Doing single leg efforts with a counterweight allows one to utilize your heart and lungs to power the single leg. Kind of like using a super charger on an engine or training while breathing O2. This allows the muscles of that leg to work harder than it ever could while the other leg is also working. At least a few athletes and coaches feel this may help with sprint training where muscular strength may be a limiter. This is probably not helpful for triathletes.

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
Last edited by: sciguy: May 20, 15 7:24
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Re: Single leg pedalling. [perfection] [ In reply to ]
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perfection wrote:
For single leg training purposes how does a counterweight system differ from a fixed wheel ?

That you're asking this question is illuminating.
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Re: Single leg pedalling. [uo5nVEtj9] [ In reply to ]
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uo5nVEtj9 wrote:

You need to expend energy to lift the "dead" leg. If the leg isn't lifted 30-40 cm, it cannot push down on the pedal. Either using that leg's hip flexors (and other muscles) or the other leg's quads (and other muscles.) The leg needs to go up against gravity. You will spend the energy. You cannot remove the work requirement unless you remove gravity. The work needed is the same, no matter which muscles you use. The only potential difference is metabolic cost.

I don't believe the work needed is the same. When you unweight the rising pedal you get 100% return from the muscles used, when you use pushing down to raise the idling leg it will take more effort because of the tangential effect reduction in the force you are applying to raise that leg.
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Re: Single leg pedalling. [perfection] [ In reply to ]
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perfection wrote:
uo5nVEtj9 wrote:


You need to expend energy to lift the "dead" leg. If the leg isn't lifted 30-40 cm, it cannot push down on the pedal. Either using that leg's hip flexors (and other muscles) or the other leg's quads (and other muscles.) The leg needs to go up against gravity. You will spend the energy. You cannot remove the work requirement unless you remove gravity. The work needed is the same, no matter which muscles you use. The only potential difference is metabolic cost.


I don't believe the work needed is the same. When you unweight the rising pedal you get 100% return from the muscles used, when you use pushing down to raise the idling leg it will take more effort because of the tangential effect reduction in the force you are applying to raise that leg.

The energy used would be the same, you just balance the energy expenditure across the muscles differently.

The primary situation where this isn't true is if a person was actively pushing down on the back half of the pedal stroke
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Re: Single leg pedalling. [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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you sure it isn't more like operating on 2 cylinder in a four cylinder engine? was not aware that there were valves that shut off and reduced blood flow to one half of the body. even though the other leg isn't doing any work aside from hanging there and keeping out of the way of pedals/cranks, it is still receiving its blood supply. or are you saying blood pressure changes from one half of the body to the other through some means if only one leg is cycling? I cant see what mechanism is shipping more o2 to the used leg. not saying you are wrong, I just don't understand
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Re: Single leg pedalling. [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
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jeffp wrote:
you sure it isn't more like operating on 2 cylinder in a four cylinder engine? was not aware that there were valves that shut off and reduced blood flow to one half of the body. even though the other leg isn't doing any work aside from hanging there and keeping out of the way of pedals/cranks, it is still receiving its blood supply. or are you saying blood pressure changes from one half of the body to the other through some means if only one leg is cycling? I cant see what mechanism is shipping more o2 to the used leg. not saying you are wrong, I just don't understand

Jeff,

Say you're swimming with a wetsuit on and not kicking at all. How much blood flow is there to your legs? Hop on a weight machine that works just one arm at a time and just work that arm. How pumped up is the other arm? Your body absolutely has the ability to direct blood where called for. Some blood vessels dilate while others constrict as needed.

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Single leg pedalling. [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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wait. swim, what? weight machines, what are those??

be nice to see data on that one, but being the lazy type in this regard, I will put off ay searching for studies :)

I figured vessels dialated and constricted based on body core temp vs extremities and via chemical methods. had not thought about due to exercise, though having a rather large inferior vena cava I suppose I should have thought about it.
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Re: Single leg pedalling. [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
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Isn't this irrelevant anyway? You have one less leg extracting O2 from the blood as it makes its journey through the body. That leaves more for the working leg.
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Re: Single leg pedalling. [Sausagetail] [ In reply to ]
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Sausagetail wrote:
Isn't this irrelevant anyway? You have one less leg extracting O2 from the blood as it makes its journey through the body. That leaves more for the working leg.

Is reduced oxygenation of blood ever a limiting factor?

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Single leg pedalling. [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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I can tell you having additional o2 allows for more power, ie tank of o2 with mask.
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Re: Single leg pedalling. [Sausagetail] [ In reply to ]
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only if more blood is going to the other leg. just cuz non-exercising leg uses less doesn't magically transport the O2 it doesn't extract through a worm hole to the other leg.
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Re: Single leg pedalling. [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
Sausagetail wrote:
Isn't this irrelevant anyway? You have one less leg extracting O2 from the blood as it makes its journey through the body. That leaves more for the working leg.


Is reduced oxygenation of blood ever a limiting factor?

EPO seems to work pretty well by increasing the amount of oxygen in the blood.
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Re: Single leg pedalling. [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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RChung wrote:
perfection wrote:
For single leg training purposes how does a counterweight system differ from a fixed wheel ?


That you're asking this question is illuminating.

But not surprising.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Single leg pedalling. [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
RChung wrote:
perfection wrote:
For single leg training purposes how does a counterweight system differ from a fixed wheel ?


That you're asking this question is illuminating.


But not surprising.

The fact is, both cases defeat the purpose of single leg pedalling.
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