Should WTC change up Kona slots for certain age groups much like prize money for pro's???

Sep 29, 14 7:28

Post #1 of 74 (4160 views)

I was wondering now that next year WTC will only have prize money for professionals at certain races, should the same be done for Kona slots for some of these age groups that only have a handful of athletes in it?

I am thinking maybe an age group needs to have at least 25 people (or some set number) to qualify for a Kona slot.

Maybe for some of the really small age groups like 70+ year old women, they just allocate a few races where there will be slots. Maybe one Ironman on every continent?

For example maybe there are only Kona slots at IMCDA in the 65+ age groups with no other races in North America being allocated Kona Slots in those age groups. Create a deeper field and more competition for the Kona slot.

They can always sign up and race any Ironman they want, but only Kona slots would be available at certain races.

I am sure older athletes will look at this as being unfair, but yesterday at IMCHOO 1 woman started & finished in the 65-69 age group. While I don't know if she took the slot (I would bet she probably did) is that really "fair"?? It's pretty much the equivalent of the lottery where you get a Kona slot and just have to validate, but in this case it was at a 140.6 race and not a 70.3. I am in no way discrediting this woman and the work she did or effort she put out, but I do think you should have to actually beat some people to KQ in your age group, not just finish.

It's the World Championship, there should be some competition to get there?

I know this would make the World Championship more concentrated in certain age groups (M 40-44), not sure if that is a good or bad thing.

Anyway I would be interested in others thoughts on this idea.

Re: Should WTC change up Kona slots for certain age groups much like prize money for pro's??? [cam2win] [ In reply to ]

Sep 29, 14 8:00

Post #2 of 74 (4094 views)

Looked at the distribution of Kona competitors here:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=5242180#5242180

I feel like, at some point, the primary competition is one's body breaking down and working against them. All of the rest of their competitors couldn't even make it to the start line. And moving those slots to the younger age group doesn't make too much of a change in the distributions.

There are other benefits to having the older age groups represented. They do inspire people in a way that letting the 5th place M35-39 into Kona would not.

Now, it would be interesting to consider pooling, say, slots from 4 races together and offering them only to the low populated age groups at a single race. So, M70-74 would have 4 slots at IMLP, for example, but none at a few other races. The unfairness in this policy would be that the older age groups would have to schedule around a few specific races, where the younger folks would have their choice.

So, net of this, I say leave it as is.

Re: Should WTC change up Kona slots for certain age groups much like prize money for pro's??? [cam2win] [ In reply to ]

Sep 29, 14 8:03

Post #3 of 74 (4088 views)

On the flip side of that argument, why have so many slots available for the M35-39 and M40-44?
Does the 6th place finisher in one of those age groups really deserve a spot at Kona?
If the slots roll, it could be the 8th or 9th place finisher.

Make it top 3 and call it done.
Podium or your watching NBC in January like the rest of us.

"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz

Re: Should WTC change up Kona slots for certain age groups much like prize money for pro's??? [stringcheese] [ In reply to ]

Sep 29, 14 8:10

Post #4 of 74 (4052 views)

On the flip side of that argument, why have so many slots available for the M35-39 and M40-44?
Does the 6th place finisher in one of those age groups really deserve a spot at Kona?
If the slots roll, it could be the 8th or 9th place finisher.

How often do slots roll these days? Just asking as I have not been to a roll-roll down in a few years.

I get the impression that in the 30 - 50 men AGs that it's very competitive, and those Kona spots are chased after very hard, and not given up very often.

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Re: Should WTC change up Kona slots for certain age groups much like prize money for pro's??? [cam2win] [ In reply to ]

Sep 29, 14 8:11

Post #5 of 74 (4048 views)

Why should she be penalized for no one else showing up? Is it her fault that no one else in that AG showed up to race that day? (Or even can complete the distance)

In reality it should be the top 3 in all AG and it should never be allowed to roll down past the top 10, maybe top 15.

Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca

Re: Should WTC change up Kona slots for certain age groups much like prize money for pro's??? [cam2win] [ In reply to ]

Sep 29, 14 8:13

Post #6 of 74 (4040 views)

It's not the fault of the 68-year old woman that her competition wasn't fit enough to even race. If it were truly so easy at that age to kona qualify, more people would be doing it. There's no shortage of retirees with unlimited time and resources for training.

Re: Should WTC change up Kona slots for certain age groups much like prize money for pro's??? [stringcheese] [ In reply to ]

Sep 29, 14 8:16

Post #7 of 74 (4033 views)

I think it depends on the race...

Last year at IMC, 6th place in M35-39 finished in 9:41 flat...

Now I get that there were still 5 dudes that finished ahead of this guy, so some might argue that a 6th place finisher shouldn't be going to Kona. However, I think that his time is more than worthy of a Kona spot. If the spot rolled down to 9th, a guy that finished in 9:42:06 would be going to Kona, so again, I have no problem with that.

Results were similar in the M40-44 age group too, and although this might not be representative of ALL races, it's one example.

I think if a spot rolls down, you should have to finish within a certain percentage time wise of the winner in order to prevent spots rolling down to people that might not really be competitive, but how you do this and what you do with spots that don't get filled throughout the year, I'm not sure.

Re: Should WTC change up Kona slots for certain age groups much like prize money for pro's??? [rbuike] [ In reply to ]

Sep 29, 14 8:19

Post #8 of 74 (4015 views)

rbuike wrote:

Why should she be penalized for no one else showing up? Is it her fault that no one else in that AG showed up to race that day? (Or even can complete the distance)

In reality it should be the top 3 in all AG and it should never be allowed to roll down past the top 10, maybe top 15.

As someone who was the 7th overall amateur and 2nd in my age group yesterday at Augusta 70.3, I gotta say that idea looks pretty attractive right now. Not getting a WC slot after placing that high is going to sting for a while.

Re: Should WTC change up Kona slots for certain age groups much like prize money for pro's??? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]

Sep 29, 14 8:21

Post #9 of 74 (4006 views)

Fleck wrote:

On the flip side of that argument, why have so many slots available for the M35-39 and M40-44?
Does the 6th place finisher in one of those age groups really deserve a spot at Kona?
If the slots roll, it could be the 8th or 9th place finisher.

How often do slots roll these days? Just asking as I have not been to a roll-roll down in a few years.

I get the impression that in the 30 - 50 men AGs that it's very competitive, and those Kona spots are chased after very hard, and not given up very often.

In most cases, you're correct.

But, the argument still stands. Does the 5th or 6th place finisher "deserve" a spot in Kona vs the 1st place finisher in one of the older age groups?

Personally, as someone who competes in the M55-59 category, I think you podium or you go home empty handed..

"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz

Re: Should WTC change up Kona slots for certain age groups much like prize money for pro's??? [stringcheese] [ In reply to ]

Sep 29, 14 8:24

Post #10 of 74 (3990 views)

Who really represents the bulk of these Ironman races?

It's mostly Men and it's from age group 30-50 that makes up the bulk of these entries. That's why these guys should get the bulk of the slots, they make up the majority of the race.

Until WTC moves to a points system for KQ'ing, slots should be allocated based on the number of people in the age group and there should be some minimums set.

Men 40-44 yesterday for 1st-8th went 9:08-9:32, there were 392 finishers in that age group and they will get 7, maybe 8 slots.

1 person finishes in another age group and they get a slot?

I think everyone should get a slot a chance to race Kona or 70.3 WC but I think you should have to beat some competitors in your age group to get there.

Re: Should WTC change up Kona slots for certain age groups much like prize money for pro's??? [cam2win] [ In reply to ]

Sep 29, 14 8:26

Post #11 of 74 (3975 views)

At what race? IMTN?

There is only like 40 slots at that race, which means M40-44 will get 4, maybe 5 slots.

Re: Should WTC change up Kona slots for certain age groups much like prize money for pro's??? [cam2win] [ In reply to ]

Sep 29, 14 8:27

Post #12 of 74 (3970 views)

Until WTC moves to a points system for KQ'ing, slots should be allocated based on the number of people in the age group and there should be some minimums set.

That's historically the way they have done the slot allocation - but what if they went to s straight up top-3 get the spots in all AG's - just wondering?

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Re: Should WTC change up Kona slots for certain age groups much like prize money for pro's??? [cam2win] [ In reply to ]

Sep 29, 14 8:29

Post #13 of 74 (3964 views)

Let me guess, you were 10th?

Points wouldn't change anything, in fact you may just end up with more slower athletes who just have more time/money to race more IM in a year. Slots are already allocated based on the number of people in the AG. Again, you can't penalize someone because no one showed up to race that day or is unable to commit to the training to complete the distance.

The 60 year old who finished beat everyone in the world in her AG yesterday.

Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca

Re: Should WTC change up Kona slots for certain age groups much like prize money for pro's??? [cam2win] [ In reply to ]

Sep 29, 14 8:32

Post #14 of 74 (3946 views)

cam2win wrote:

Who really represents the bulk of these Ironman races?

It's mostly Men and it's from age group 30-50 that makes up the bulk of these entries. That's why these guys should get the bulk of the slots, they make up the majority of the race.

Until WTC moves to a points system for KQ'ing, slots should be allocated based on the number of people in the age group and there should be some minimums set.

Men 40-44 yesterday for 1st-8th went 9:08-9:32, there were 392 finishers in that age group and they will get 7, maybe 8 slots.

1 person finishes in another age group and they get a slot?

I think everyone should get a slot a chance to race Kona or 70.3 WC but I think you should have to beat some competitors in your age group to get there.

It sucks to be in a tough age group and it sucks to get old :-)

"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz

Re: Should WTC change up Kona slots for certain age groups much like prize money for pro's??? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]

Sep 29, 14 8:32

Post #15 of 74 (3943 views)

Fleck wrote:

That's historically the way they have done the slot allocation - but what if they went to s straight up top-3 get the spots in all AG's - just wondering?

That's what should happen. Top 3 in each AG and it can't roll down further than Top 10 (if even that far). You'd have 60ish slots per race but no transferring of slots between AG if only one or two show up in an AG so in reality probably only 50 actual slot allocations.

Yes it would be hard to qualify but its the world championships, it is supposed to be hard to qualify.

Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca

Re: Should WTC change up Kona slots for certain age groups much like prize money for pro's??? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]

Sep 29, 14 8:34

Post #16 of 74 (3931 views)

In some ways that would be a more equitable distribution. Personally, I wouldn't be overly opposed to it, partially because of it's predictability.

The downside would be that it would require choosing your qualifying race/schedule more carefully as a race like IMAZ or IMTX, which are historically very competitive would become a lot more interesting - which again in some ways I like this - as I enjoy really competitive fields.

Lots of ways to accomplish this, one of the downfalls of the point system for AGers is that you could potential exclude folks like Thomas Brunold - who generally only races IMWI and does kona every other year. He is an athlete that when he races Kona definitely adds "value" to the race in his AG.

Re: Should WTC change up Kona slots for certain age groups much like prize money for pro's??? [rbuike] [ In reply to ]

Sep 29, 14 8:35

Post #17 of 74 (3926 views)

I'm not saying we penalize her or knock her for what she accomplished, she did nothing wrong.

However I think there is something wrong with the current set up.

This is much like what WTC has done with the pro's they have grown the number of races they now offer and grown slots with it, just like they use to pay pro's.

What they found was they had weak fields of competition and a lot of pro races that didn't mean much.

They have now changed the structure to their pro racing to improve the competition.

All I am suggesting is that they do the same thing with these age groups that can't seem to attract 25 athletes in an age group for a race that has 2,500 athletes in it.

Make it whatever Ironman in North America you like, Arizona, Texas, Placid, I don't care. Pick one or two races and say these one or two races will have Kona slots for 60 & above athletes or whatever they determined. Maybe if there are 25 athletes in your age group we give 1 or 2 Kona slots and if you have 25-50 we give 2-3, whatever is actually fair. I am in not suggesting we penalize them, just make them have a race where they beat a field with some level of depth.

Why? Because Kona slots are valuable and coveted and you should have to race some people in your age group and beat them to prove you deserve to go to Kona.

Re: Should WTC change up Kona slots for certain age groups much like prize money for pro's??? [rbuike] [ In reply to ]

Sep 29, 14 8:36

Post #18 of 74 (3921 views)

Yes it would be hard to qualify but its the world championships, it is supposed to be hard to qualify.

Bingo!

Thanks, Rod

People want to take this seriously, and sport at this level, get's ruthless . . . it's what no one wants to talk about.

Miss it by a minute or a sec . . . sorry try again next year!

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Re: Should WTC change up Kona slots for certain age groups much like prize money for pro's??? [cam2win] [ In reply to ]

Sep 29, 14 8:39

Post #19 of 74 (3905 views)

cam2win wrote:

Why? Because Kona slots are valuable and coveted and you should have to race some people in your age group and beat them to prove you deserve to go to Kona.

If it is so coveted then why should anyone slower than the top-5 get a slot just because there are more middle/back of the pack athletes in their AG?

You are arguing to make it harder on one AG in order to make it easier on another.

Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca

Last edited by: rbuike: Sep 29, 14 8:39

Re: Should WTC change up Kona slots for certain age groups much like prize money for pro's??? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]

Sep 29, 14 8:42

Post #20 of 74 (3891 views)

Fleck,
I see what you are saying and that is an idea.

However, if you are WTC and you want to feed the machine $$$$. You need to keep the hope alive that your customer can possibly qualify for Kona. For many (not all) this is a goal or aspiration.

Who is the bulk of their customer? Men 30-50 saying only the top 3 go to Kona could create a lot more bucket list Ironmen (i.e. one and done).

Creating a system where more of your slots are going to the bulk of those athletes maybe keeps a lot more of those athletes coming back to your event.

My goal of this thread is not to feed WTC's pockets.

It's to say the guy who is in the 40-44 age group and goes 9:30 at and Ironman, but gets 8th, while it might be 8th, that's a damn fast time and they deserve some real consideration for Kona.

Re: Should WTC change up Kona slots for certain age groups much like prize money for pro's??? [sentania] [ In reply to ]

Sep 29, 14 8:42

Post #21 of 74 (3889 views)

sentania wrote:

At what race? IMTN?

There is only like 40 slots at that race, which means M40-44 will get 4, maybe 5 slots.

It�s listed as a 50 slot race for Kona 2015, though that probably only makes a 1 slot difference for the larger AGs, maybe 2 slots for the largest AG.

Team Kiwami
Instagram

Re: Should WTC change up Kona slots for certain age groups much like prize money for pro's??? [rbuike] [ In reply to ]

Sep 29, 14 8:48

Post #22 of 74 (3868 views)

No, I am no where close to 10th. I am a MOP athlete.

Guess what???

You can penalize athletes, WTC just did it to the pro's starting next year. Why are age groupers any different or so special?

Pro's covet $$$$

Age Groupers covet Kona Slots

WTC is creating more competition in pro racing by taking money from other races and concentrating it at a few races.

Do the same thing with some age groups, just do it with Kona slots.

Re: Should WTC change up Kona slots for certain age groups much like prize money for pro's??? [cam2win] [ In reply to ]

Sep 29, 14 8:51

Post #23 of 74 (3849 views)

cam2win wrote:

It's to say the guy who is in the 40-44 age group and goes 9:30 at and Ironman, but gets 8th, while it might be 8th, that's a damn fast time and they deserve some real consideration for Kona.

That's damn fast for someone in my age group (M55-59) but NOT in the M40-44 age group.
In your scenario, 7 guys went faster.

If we took your suggestion to the Nth degree, the guys race would basically consist of three age groups..M30-34, M35-39 and M40-44. There may be a few outliers in <30 and >45 but the vast majority of what you consider "damn fast times" are in those three age groups.

"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz

Re: Should WTC change up Kona slots for certain age groups much like prize money for pro's??? [cam2win] [ In reply to ]

Sep 29, 14 8:53

Post #24 of 74 (3843 views)

cam2win wrote:

No, I am no where close to 10th. I am a MOP athlete.

So why do you care so much then?

cam2win wrote:

Guess what???

You can penalize athletes, WTC just did it to the pro's starting next year. Why are age groupers any different or so special?

Because AG pay to race and Kona is the only thing that WTC has that keeps (some) people from racing HITS, Challenge, etc...

Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca

Re: Should WTC change up Kona slots for certain age groups much like prize money for pro's??? [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]

Sep 29, 14 9:37

Post #25 of 74 (3770 views)

AlwaysCurious wrote:

It's not the fault of the 68-year old woman that her competition wasn't fit enough to even race. If it were truly so easy at that age to kona qualify, more people would be doing it. There's no shortage of retirees with unlimited time and resources for training.

THIS^^ I'm really getting tired of you children bitching about the number of competitors in the older age groups. You are totally clueless. 99% of you will be fat golfers when you hit 60. Now get the #@!* off my yard!!!

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