I think people have to much time on their hands - is he cheating now?

so? he's a cheat in the broadest sense. you should, if you are in his AG, consider yourself having finished one place further up if you finished behind him and don't think cheats should be allowed in

alternatively you could say he did his time and therefore as things currently stand is allowed to race

on a personal level I think he finished 9th and he's a documented history of cheating - that's about all I can say about it and I couldn't, in the broadest sense, care less

They should not be allowed to race in any organized event. These organizations need to come together so people can't move from sport to sport in order to fulfill their egos while cheating. If you think lifetime bans are too long then give a 10 year ban from all organized events that have a governing body. I am not on his level but I do want to qualify for Worlds and Kona sometime in my Triathlon career and these guys take those spots away.

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http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com

I remember racing against Seb in the UBC Tri about 7 years ago, he won his AG, and he also set a world record in the "Grouse Grind, a local mountain running track
https://www.grousemountain.com/...attered#.VxPPvvpfOrU

He has served his 2 years so there's nothing wrong with him competing, but the question arises, is two years long enough for dopers?

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res, non verba

x2

This is why it matters at his level.

If I'm not mistaken, he was never actually CAUGHT doping. He missed a doping test. Supposedly, his wife was in labour. He seemed unwilling to fight the issue.

Then again, too many Canadian cyclists I admired doped, so all possible.(Hesejdal, Michael Barry)

http://bc.ctvnews.ca/...erstanding-1.1649751

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Cervelo R3 and Cannondale Synapse, Argon18 Electron Track Bike

let's establish some ground rules for this.

first, point of order, a fair number of posts are missing, and if you posted and your post is missing it's not because i took offense to your post, it's likely because your post was the fruit of a post that i excised from the thread. so, don't take it personal.

second, i have heard from a number of parties privately. as with any number of other threads and discussions, no, i'm not going to disallow all discussion on this. but i would like to point out that this ban was not levied as a result of a positive doping test. the fact that there was a 2-year ban means the infraction was deemed very serious. some may conclude that such an infraction is evidence of guilt. some of you have said to or alluded to it.

nevertheless, let us not here accuse someone of an infraction that was not proved. let's keep the accusations - if you need to level an accusation - to infractions that either were proved or at least not contested by the subject.

third, you may feel free to opine that folks who commit certain offenses should not be eligible for competition ever. but the very body who suspended this athlete for 2 years by its own rules allows him back to compete. you have a right to say he should not compete, but you have no right to try to keep him from competing. whether you have a right to harangue him as he competes i don't know. but there is a limit to how much abuse a person should be allowed to take on this forum, and i am the final arbiter of that.

to reiterate, in my opinion, there is an argument that can be made that sebastian salas has not been demonstrated to be a doper. rather, he failed a doping control test without returning an adverse analytical finding. for the purposes of the discussion forward-going, i'd like you all not to refer to someone in a way that suggests returning a positive sample when that is not the case. you can make reference to a person coming off an anti-doping suspension.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Total BS dude. It was clearly communicated to Salas that he was a random test for Gastown and then took off and disappeared for hours without any contact with team or race officials. Apparently his teammates yelled at him to stay put but he didn't listen.

If his wife was in labour (I don't think she actually was if memory serves) he could have easily had a UCI chaperone follow him to the hospital and take the sample at any time that was convenient. That is how it works, you can do anything you want post race (warm down, clean up, get food) as long as the chaperone is with you. After CCES finally tracked him down, Seb returned a sample so diluted that it was unusable-that doesn't happen by accident and no one drinks 2 gallons of water while frantically attending to a pregnant wife. How can you find reasonable doubt in those actions? He wasn't expecting to be tested in a crit, CCES had a hunch and surprised him, he tried to squirm out of it.

I was Seb's teammate and rode with him for years in the peloton and I was shocked by the news. He is a really nice dude and never rubbed people the wrong way. But with the facts brought to light I haven't run into a single BC Pro 1/2 rider who believes he is incident.

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Professional Athlete: http://jordancheyne.wordpress.com/ http://www.strava.com/athletes/145340

Coaching Services:http://www.peakformcoaching.com/

For reference here is the CCES statement:

http://cces.ca/...lete-sebastian-salas

I would agree, that you can't "call" him a "doper" (at least here)….but, this used to be a 6 month offence. He was deemed to have "tampered" with the process (see statement)

Anyways, like a bunch of other athletes. served his time and is now allowed to compete.

Edit: he also declined arbitration, which is the first and easiest (read cheapest outside of lawyering up) step.

Maurice

With regard to rule #3 -You are the arbiter of how much risk, as the ST forum, you are willing to accept with regard to the content of posts that are made. So by intervening you are (presumably) reducing your risk exposure. The arbiter of how much abuse a person can take is the person themselves. And the steps they can take with regard to putting a stop to it.

I am surprised this subject (e.g libel etc.) is that misunderstood.

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Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com

"you are willing to accept with regard to the content of posts that are made. So by intervening you are (presumably) reducing your risk exposure."

to the degree this is true, i would also be reducing your risk exposure. especially if you live in canada which i believe describes you. keyboard chevaliers always type out a big game until they get contacted by a plaintiff's lawyer, and then all the bravado melts away.

i've been doing this 16 years, and i get it from all sides. when other message boards are pulling threads right and left you get to still talk about your colorful and nuanced british columbian distance athletes here. what i'm asking is that you simply stick to what is true, and what you know, and if it's something you suspect please label it as that.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I compete at a similar level in triathlon in British Columbia. Based on his history, I'm not overly happy to see him racing in our sport and was dissapointed to see him listed on the pro startlist for Victoria 70.3.

Do you compete pro? Would you rather he raced AG?

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***

So maybe part of the answer is that athletes are allowed to return to competition after suspension, but can never qualify for worlds/kona etc?
I don't care if a doper takes 100th spot from me when I am 101st.... But I too have some small tiny hope of someday making worlds, and that is the only time I'd care too, I'd like to think that podium spots are tested, and ex-dopers are not allowed in those spots......anyhoo.....

Why do so many spend so much time it seems always arguing about various rules? If you really think they are wrong, whatever the rule is, get on the committees, boards, etc
that set them. Otherwise, right or wrong, if a rule has been followed, enjoy life.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

To draw a distinction between a positive test and a missed test, or a tampered test, is to undercut the process so much that one might as well do away with it. The only reason to draw a distinction is because we feel that missing a test is more (or less) "guilty" than a positive test. Technically missing a test is not testing positive, but the culpability must be the same.

What if an athlete was shown to have provided someone else's urine in a doping test? Do we make some distinction there too?

Ironic coming from someone who spends seemingly hours on this forum arguing about things. :)

"To draw a distinction between a positive test and a missed test, or a tampered test, is to undercut the process so much that one might as well do away with it."

you are right. and if i did that (which i didn't) i would be guilty of undercutting the process.

"Technically missing a test is not testing positive, but the culpability must be the same."

exactly. which is substantially what i wrote:

this ban was not levied as a result of a positive doping test. the fact that there was a 2-year ban means the infraction was deemed very serious.

this is what i wrote above. what you aren't reading here in this thread are the posts that i pulled calling sebastian a doper. i don't mean to minimize the infraction. rather, i'd like you to accurately represent the infraction.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Did you pull "alsalmo"s posts, or did he delete them himself?

I disagree with his opinion/view point but I don't think he was saying anything outside of the forum rules etc.

Maurice

here's what happens. let's say that you write, "john jones is an anti-intellectual murderer who embezzles from the zoroastrian church." let's say that i find that an inappropriate. i can either pull that post, or i can pull that post plus all the fruit of that post, that is, all the responses and the responses to responses. i will typically do the latter, because if i don't the responses don't make sense without the original post.

this is what i did. whether alsalmo deleted his own posts, or whether they were swept up in the fruit-of-the-post excising i don't know.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Out of curiosity, are you bound by Canadian laws of libel, which differ significantly from the US and could hold you, or Slowtwitch, far more accountable.
As he is a Canadian, the race was in Canada and presumably his living (or parts of it) is made in Canada.
The Law (as I have discovered) is a poker game.

Dan, to just be technical, if I delete my post, the post under my name is still there, but empty.

So clearly if any person had pulled their posts, they would be there empty. Since they are all 100% gone, the only person who can do that is you.
So, do I have the process wrong? :)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Not about someone who did their time. Lots of rules I do not like, but I then try to change them rather than just bitch. :)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

"Out of curiosity, are you bound by Canadian laws of libel, which differ significantly from the US and could hold you, or Slowtwitch, far more accountable."

everybody is bound by every libel law in every country, but only in that country. i can get sued in mongolia, you can get sued in liberia, but a U.S. court is unlikely to recognize any judgment by any country that has more stringent free speech laws than here in the U.S.

an american is not likely to be held liable in the U.S. by a judgment in a canadian court if that judgment is based on the much less liberal free speech protections we enjoy in the U.S.

i don't think the average canadian appreciates the tighter limits on speech in that country.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"Dan, to just be technical, if I delete my post, the post under my name is still there, but empty."

if you edit all text out of your post it'll be empty but still there. i don't know under the current new architecture if you can just flat delete your post.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman