I was just browsing the Tokyo marathon results (by the way Wilson Kipsang ran a 2:03.58 so he has 4 of the top 15 times all time), and I saw the link to the Sunday Times UK article, but when I clicked on it, you have to be a subscriber, but it seem SI got the full details from that story so thanks for the link. Its "new news" not "old news" from what I gather. Don't know if it is fake or legit, or alternate facts at this point.

L-carnitine is not a prohibited substance, and Salazar claims he followed the WADA limitations on injections. He also claims that he cleared the substance and method of injection with USADA before using it. Even if that's true, however, it's remains pretty clear that he's not afraid to push the limits.

I believe the USADA report is new, the allegations against Salazar are not new.

If anything it should help to open eyes that in sport at the highest level(s), be it cycling, triathlon, running, football or football, rugby etc you have a fair percentage of coaches & athletes who are willing to try/push/do things that may cross the line on ethics and legality. The well it's not specifically banned.......crowd

If you read Mo's statement he doesn't deny doing L-carnitine just that he stayed within the law set forth by WADA.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

If you read Mo's statement he doesn't deny doing L-carnitine just that he stayed within the law set forth by WADA. //

Well ok, do people have a problem with this? I mean are we going now to interpret WADA guidelines different than intended? Why is everyone surprised that people that will push the limits on training their bodies will also try and make them even healthier and stronger? Do you all think we should go to some standard where you just get to eat food?


And this is not something new, I recall L-carnatine being all in vogue back in the mid 80's. Believe one of our forum regulars wrote a whole book on stuff like this, how much to take, when to take it, and all the other legal supplements that were available to the athletes at the time..

In science and Engineering, that is considered a good thing.

Why shouldn't he push the limits as long as he makes sure he doesn't overstep the line and doesn't put his athletes in danger (if it's not fake news, that was one of the main concerns of a UKA doctor).

I'm glad this information has been published. It further pulls back the curtain regarding what individual endurance athletes and coaches are willing to do to succeed. Each reader can make a determination regarding the ethics and wisdom of these actions by individual athletes and coaches.

The issue is they push the limits by using bogus TUEs. The shining example is Brad Wiggins. His TUEs did not meet three out of the four required criteria for a TUE. Arguably they did not meet the fourth either. It was rubber stamped anyway because the authorities won't delve into whether or not a TUE is legitimate. Team Sky hedged their bets by hiring Rabobank's dope doctor, who is friends with the man at the UCI who was responsible for doing the rubber stamping. So there is a situation where usage is against the WADA code but sports bend over backwards to help their athletes continue to dope.

It's new news. It's a leak by Fancy Bears (Russian hacking group that outed many TUEs around Rio) of an internal USADA report prepared in response to a formal subpoena. Let's Run has typically in-depth analysis: http://www.letsrun.com/...s-boost-performance/

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

some reasons come to mind

1. We may not be sure L-cartitine(sp) are harmful or not. IDK I haven't bothered to waste time this morning researching

2. We have coaches who send a large % of their athletes to endo's for thyroid meds. These meds aren't banned but have been show to reduce body fat & help athletes recover faster. There can be health risks associated with this. The amount of elite endurance athletes with Hashimoto's is < the # on thyroid meds for dubious reasons

3. Supplementing T can have long term effects yet that didn't stop Salazar from giving Rupp supplements to boost his T when he was 15yo. While not giving him T, pretty sure this is unethical, at least in my book.

4. Salazar has sent his athletes to training camps in countries where doping controls are lax to non existent. There have also been training camps in these same countries that have been caught with EPO on site. Causation doesn't = correlation but as an elite level athlete acting shady isn't in your best interest.

he may not be over stepping the line but he has threatened the health of his athletes.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

L-carn is dosed in 100's mg to grams for nearly all indications. The manufacture recommends a max of 8mg/ml when injecting it. I haven't seen what does he uses But 50ml is gonna probably be a sub therapeutic dose. He could be using concentrations higher than 8mg/ml but that's insane because if it forms any sort of precipitate it'll kill you fast as it clogs all your capillaries

It's gonna be pushing the 50ml limit and short of catching it in the process he's in the clear ]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25669660

The adverse effects of long-term l-carnitine supplementation on liver and kidney function in rats.

Levo-Carnitine (l-carnitine) is widely used in health and food. This study was to focus on the adverse effects of 8-week oral supplementation of l-carnitine (0.3 and 0.6 g/kg) in female and male Sprague Dawley rats. l-carnitine reduced body and fat weights, as well as serum, liver, and kidney lipid levels in rats. Simultaneously, hepatic fatty acid β-oxidation and lipid synthesis were disturbed in l-carnitine-fed rats. Moreover, l-carnitine accelerated reactive oxygen species production in serum and liver, thereby triggering hepatic NOD-like receptor 3 (NLRP3) inflammasome activation to elevate serum interleukin (IL)-1β and IL-18 levels in rats. Alteration of serum alkaline phosphatase levels further confirmed liver dysfunction in l-carnitine-fed rats. Additionally, l-carnitine may potentially disturb kidney function by altering renal protein levels of rat organic ion transporters. These observations may provide the caution information for the safety of long-term l-carnitine supplementation.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

maybe the WADA guidline needs to be changed for some substance from legal to illigal.

For the most part, yes. Here's the problem with supplements, injections, and every other form of grey-area enhancement--it will ALWAYS trickle down to kids and young adults who have yet to develop a fully-rational brain in their head. Instead of an MD in the Nike lab administering a 49.9 ml injection of a known substance every 6:01 hours (to skirt the wada rules), we'll have 17-year olds who want to make the DIII track team shooting up in their car with a substance they got from their friend who bought it off the internet.

As a society we have a responsibility to look out for those who can't make good decisions for themselves (especially kids). We also live in a world where 16-year olds can buy anything off the internet easier than I can change the clock on my microwave. And some number of kids will try to mimic anything that they see pro's do.

Which means we need to model the behavior we want children/young adults to follow--because there's certainly little forcing/shaming/punishing/threatening of kids that will be effective. Remember, the behavior in the report isn't coming from some 2nd tier pro in a backwater country. It's coming from one of the highest paid coaches in the world who is funded by one of the globe's largest apparel manufacturers, working with an Olympian and world record holder. The behavior they are all modeling is exactly the opposite of what is moral and responsible.

Everything you said above is EXACTLY why the NFL won't legalize juicing up and making the NFL a pharam free for all openly (whereas, privately every owner will do everything in their power to sell more tickets, which means winning, which means more juiced up players). The only thing stopping the NFL from publicly going with a steroid free for all, is exactly what you have said. They "feel" they will sell more tickets with the status quo and not overtly telling 15 year old John Doe high school player to shoot up with his parents dreaming of Johnny being the next Tom Brady stopping at no expense to support the required pharma assist.

Let's not fool ourselves, it's not just 16 year old kids doing it on their own. If parents see that pros do it legally they will spare no expense to live out their own failed athletic dreams by shooting up their kid with every designer drug that the pros are using

 

This is where L-carnitine plays a role in beta oxidation of fats. It is thought to be rate limiting.

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Simplify, Train, Live

Yes, this is sadly true.

Apparently Salazar also had Farah on a level of prescription Vitamin D that, according the usada report, caused "egregious risks" to the athlete. While there's no inherent wada ban on vitamin D, one has to wonder why an athlete would need to supplement with such a high dosage (toxicity levels for vitamin D intake are about 10 times higher than even aggressive supplementation levels, and 100 times higher than you'll find in your typical multi-vitamin).

The simple answer would be "because some other substance was depleting his vitamin D levels." And while I have no idea how many substances could cause that depletion, oral steroids are apparently one.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/.../09/110929144639.htm

maybe the WADA guidline needs to be changed for some substance from legal to illigal. //

Well they do, all the time. I can remember when a few cups of strong coffee were ok, then illegal, then ok again. Same goes for some asthma medications, legal to illegal, back to legal. Hell, I remember when you could buy the mega bottle of DHEA at Costco and friends of mine were taking 200 mg a day, all legal. My aversion to anything pill or drug like had me taking the smallest dose of 25mg, and it worked even at that level. Get a trace now from a tainted supplement and you are out for years.


I don't know what the protocol is for evaluating different supplements and drugs, but they have one and they seem to be active. Forget the latest drug that all the Russians were on, some heart medication that apparently had some positive effect on sports that was just banned. My guess is that they just hear about this or that and then take a look at it and see if it meets their bar, and if so it gets popped onto the list.

For the most part, yes. Here's the problem with supplements, injections, and every other form of grey-area enhancement--it will ALWAYS trickle down to kids and young adults who have yet to develop a fully-rational brain in their head. Instead of an MD in the Nike lab administering a 49.9 ml injection of a known substance every 6:01 hours (to skirt the wada rules), we'll have 17-year olds who want to make the DIII track team shooting up in their car with a substance they got from their friend who bought it off the internet. //

Personally I agree with what you say, besides a couple of vitamins and the occasional experiment with this or that bee pollen like magic bullet, it is how I have comported myself throughout my career. But I also realize how hard a job this really is and that they have to go after the low hanging fruit first and foremost. And we all(you and I) would like to have a pure sport, but I understand there have to be lines drawn, and they cannot be so radical that the proverbial poppy seed bagel is setting off the alarm at every turn. I don't want to see my morning coffee go back to decaf, I think the kids can handle some amount of leeway if properly advised through the ranks..


I think the adults that coach and supervise them are the real problem. As you say access is easier than it has ever been in our history, so education and guidance is going to be the only weapon to battle that avenue.

salazar's certainly falling more and more into the 'walking and talking like a duck' category, for me. shady guy, it sounds like, with a lot of 'right up against the line' practices. and a whole lot of athletes throwing down huge performances.

i'd offer that if it were a spanish cycling team or a bulgarian weightlifting team rubbing up against the exact same line, we'd have condemned them already. salazar will get the benefit of the doubt, and there still aren't any smoking guns, but i wouldn't be betting long on him, myself.

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https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

"he's not afraid to push the limits"

I guess we all want coaches to do that.

Just seems like in cycling and running right now they may have questionable ethics even within the legal limits.

No doubt TUEs are being abused.

One big bust and a huge scandal will emege


Will.it be Sky or Nike ?

Considering that NIKE has been sketchy from Day One, when Phil Knight started selling Tigers out of his trunk, I'd say it's in their DNA

BTW: I got his memoir, Shoe Dog, from the library. It was unreadable, and I returned it even before Pre showed up

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin