SEAT ANGLE AND FASTER TIMES

Jan 10, 06 16:36

Post #1 of 37 (2721 views)

I just read the article on seat angle vs. bike/run times and just wanted to throw some stuff out there. I am by trade a physical therapist and actually am presently researching the core/trunk/spine positioning and activities performed while in those positions. I am looking at this in relation to lifting and the daily/work activites of my patients. But I noticed that maybe some of this information could apply to riding steep vs shallow in an Ironman. I am looking at the relationship of these tasks and activities to the actual spinal (disc) compression that the positions/activities cause and the body's response (for example the amount of muscular spinal "stabilization" that is required for these activities to be performed and the risk of injury) What I am finding is that while in the "flexed " posture (even very moderately flexed), (shallow seat angle when looking at the lumbar spine) we require so much more muscular stabilization (even some of our "stabilizers" do not even work correctly) and there is SIGNIFICANTLY more spinal compression. In the more neutral lumbar posture that a steep seat angle may allow, less muscular stabilization is required(in the lumbar spine) and there is less spinal compression. Therefore, potentially there could be less effect on the core prior to the run and possibly increase the ability to produce power on the bike. And even less risk of LB injury. Please comment! I will keep you posted on more!

“It’s good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end.” - Ernest Hemingway

Re: SEAT ANGLE AND FASTER TIMES [robcoltman] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 06 17:26

Post #2 of 37 (2671 views)

Bring it on folks.

“It’s good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end.” - Ernest Hemingway

Re: SEAT ANGLE AND FASTER TIMES [robcoltman] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 06 17:34

Post #3 of 37 (2662 views)

I ride very steep, actually very close to 90. My saddle tip is 5cm in front of the bb. I find I run much better when biking in this position. I'm 50 years old and have a number of broken vert. in my back from mtn bike booboos. On the other hand I also use RC's which tend to keep my cadence down, thus matching my run cadence. I've found after 15 years in tri's that these 2 things help my running off the bike.

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Paul

Re: SEAT ANGLE AND FASTER TIMES [robcoltman] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 06 17:35

Post #4 of 37 (2662 views)

Makes sense to me. I've constantly moved my seat more and more forward to achieve more comfort and it seems to help.

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Re: SEAT ANGLE AND FASTER TIMES [robcoltman] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 06 17:36

Post #5 of 37 (2661 views)

AFAIK, there is very little info on this. I'm a chiropractor and have found very little while researching the areas you are talking about. It seems like very little has been done in this area and I don't know how much more significant spinal compression there is on a 73 vs 78 degree seat angle difference.

Realize that world class TT racers and road racers have much faster bike splits than top triathletes and they are forced by their rules to ride in a more slack position.

As for running better off the steep angle bike the general consensus seems to be that this is more of a function of the hamstrings working less hard during the ride in the steep position than the slack position, but when we notice how well ITU racers run after their bike splits on road bikes in draft legal events it makes one wonder if this really is so.

Re: SEAT ANGLE AND FASTER TIMES [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 06 17:49

Post #6 of 37 (2646 views)

Actually there is a fair amount of new literature coming out on the degree of spinal compression that positions, exercises and activites have, the muscle groups activated, or not...not just the old original Nachemson stuff. Yes not specifically the bicycle position. Also ITU triathletes have the benefit of the draft...the very reason that they can run. Yes the old argument of the slack angle TT specialists does come into play...but we are definitely speaking of the bike and the run together in an Ironman...the bike is not a full speed TT unless the competitor is headed for the medical tent! Just food for thought...lets keep this going because it would be great to have more information.

“It’s good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end.” - Ernest Hemingway

Re: SEAT ANGLE AND FASTER TIMES [robcoltman] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 06 17:53

Post #7 of 37 (2637 views)

"Yes not specifically the bicycle position."

That's what I meant.

"Also ITU triathletes have the benefit of the draft...the very reason that they can run."

How does drafting on the bike improve running?

Re: SEAT ANGLE AND FASTER TIMES [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 06 18:19

Post #8 of 37 (2620 views)

[reply]

"Also ITU triathletes have the benefit of the draft...the very reason that they can run."

How does drafting on the bike improve running?[/reply]

If you are drafting, you are working at about what, 70% effort for the same speed? That lots of extra juice left for the run.

Re: SEAT ANGLE AND FASTER TIMES [velocity] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 06 18:45

Post #9 of 37 (2598 views)

If you put an elite triathlete competing in a draft legal, Olympic Distance tri and then that same athlete raced a draft-free Olympic dist...same course, the run for the draft legal event would always be faster (minus any other variables)

“It’s good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end.” - Ernest Hemingway

Re: SEAT ANGLE AND FASTER TIMES [robcoltman] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 06 18:48

Post #10 of 37 (2593 views)

Plus...We haven't even touched on if TT specialists were ALLOWED to ride a steeper setup..what would the times be. A whole new can of worms.

“It’s good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end.” - Ernest Hemingway

Re: SEAT ANGLE AND FASTER TIMES [robcoltman] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 06 18:53

Post #11 of 37 (2582 views)

Also going back to the idea of the amount of spinal compression/injury risk/core efficiency of a steeper set-up vs. shallow, the amount of lumbar flexion would also be affected by elbow pad positioning as well so there are many variables to think of.

“It’s good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end.” - Ernest Hemingway

Re: SEAT ANGLE AND FASTER TIMES [velocity] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 06 19:04

Post #12 of 37 (2569 views)

[reply][.reply]

"Also ITU triathletes have the benefit of the draft...the very reason that they can run."

How does drafting on the bike improve running?[./reply]

If you are drafting, you are working at about what, 70% effort for the same speed? That lots of extra juice left for the run.[/reply]

Not sure I buy that. First off, I don't think drafting saves 30% of my energy. My WAG would be about 10%. Anyway, when drafting in a RACE I would still be putting out the same effort (i.e. 100%), I would just be going faster (either following someone much stronger than I, helping to lead a pack, etc.) Instead of biking at say 22mph avg for non-drafting events, I might be doing 24 with drafting. If I still hit 22mph and was drafting, then yes, I used less energy. If I was only putting out 70% effort, of course I would run better - but then, I should have biked harder.

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

Re: SEAT ANGLE AND FASTER TIMES [velocity] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 06 19:05

Post #13 of 37 (2565 views)

"If you are drafting, you are working at about what, 70% effort for the same speed? That lots of extra juice left for the run. "

Guess you don't watch much ITU. It's not like they're doing regular rotation group rides.

Reduced effort in the draft would be no different from holding back on the bike in the IM and saving it for the run. Seems that what's most of the IM champs have done. Only a few IM championships have been won coming off the bike.

Last edited by: cerveloguy: Jan 10, 06 19:12

Re: SEAT ANGLE AND FASTER TIMES [robcoltman] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 06 19:10

Post #14 of 37 (2552 views)

Another thing you could be over looking is that in general as you move the seat back you also raise the handle bars so the actual biomechanical position doesn't change that much, it's just rotated. The exception is world class TT'ers as many of them ride very low on a steep angle, but this is not always the case. Just look at Lance's TT position from last year.

Re: SEAT ANGLE AND FASTER TIMES [rroof] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 06 19:11

Post #15 of 37 (2548 views)

I personally am not saying it's a cake walk out there (ITU racing) either, I just know that even when you are going so hard that your eyes are about to pop out of your head, you still save after you take your pull and hop on a wheel...the equivalent to draft-illegal would be to never get on a wheel and pull the whole pack....for the whole race. And that happens because it's not always organized, but that's not the guy that runs 30 minutes or less for the 10K.

“It’s good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end.” - Ernest Hemingway

Re: SEAT ANGLE AND FASTER TIMES [robcoltman] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 06 19:12

Post #16 of 37 (2546 views)

I dunno, man. Some of us aren't well-suited to steep riding. My knees bother me greatly once that saddle gets up to the BB (and I have short-ish femurs for my height).

Anyway, what you are suggesting is that we should want to ride w/ as open of hips as possible. So the first thing is to get fit in such a way as to rotate that pelvis forward. I'll buy that, and my back agrees. But then to extend that thinking, you'd want to ride a lot higher for any given steepness. That's where I think most will stop listening!

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Re: SEAT ANGLE AND FASTER TIMES [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 06 19:14

Post #17 of 37 (2544 views)

I actually mentioned that in a previous comment...

"Also going back to the idea of the amount of spinal compression/injury risk/core efficiency of a steeper set-up vs. shallow, the amount of lumbar flexion would also be affected by elbow pad positioning as well so there are many variables to think of. "

“It’s good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end.” - Ernest Hemingway

Re: SEAT ANGLE AND FASTER TIMES [rroof] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 06 19:14

Post #18 of 37 (2542 views)

I have, on a few brief occasions, tried to ride with the Tu-Th roadies at the Rose bowl. They are whizzing around at ~30 mph. When I get a little chicken, which is mostly, I can only keep up briefly. One of them, the father of a patient, told me to get out of the wind, I was expending too much effort. In the middle of the pack, I have to really cut back on my effort to keep my wheel away from the guys ahead.

I believe that I read that the power reduction of pack drafting is more like 30-40%.

_________________
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Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.

Re: SEAT ANGLE AND FASTER TIMES [Aztec] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 06 19:19

Post #19 of 37 (2534 views)

To answer Aztec...I am not really suggesting anything about what we should or shouldn't do...just throwing some info out that I came accross that seems to correlate LOOSELY with spinal positioning/bike positioning and faster times. One should never change what they feels works for them. This really needs some good research!

“It’s good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end.” - Ernest Hemingway

Re: SEAT ANGLE AND FASTER TIMES [robcoltman] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 06 19:22

Post #20 of 37 (2529 views)

"Plus...We haven't even touched on if TT specialists were ALLOWED to ride a steeper setup..what would the times be. A whole new can of worms. "

So show us your data.

That's pure speculation. Doesn't look like the ICU is going to change the rules any time soon.

In fact I'll bet most of the riders would chose not to ride overly steep in the TT. Realize that these are people that train 100,000 kms per year on the bike, most of it on their road bikes. They spend relatively little time on their TT bikes so would likely want to keep the geometry as close as possible.

It's apples and oranges trying to compare pro cyclists and pro IM.

Re: SEAT ANGLE AND FASTER TIMES [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 06 19:26

Post #21 of 37 (2520 views)

I am not suggesting anything...who knows what would be faster? Sure would be interesting wouldn't it?

“It’s good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end.” - Ernest Hemingway

Re: SEAT ANGLE AND FASTER TIMES [robcoltman] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 06 19:35

Post #22 of 37 (2507 views)

Sure it would. But it sounds like you're already assuming. And how do you possibly determine what works best for everybody considering the wide range of biomechanical individuality.

I know what works for me. I've never been any faster or slower riding 78+ steep than -74 shallow. In fact my fastest bike splits were a compromise in a "multisport" 75/76 degree type position. But I do run better off the steep angles. But that's not a scientific study.

Re: SEAT ANGLE AND FASTER TIMES [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 06 19:40

Post #23 of 37 (2501 views)

[reply]"If you are drafting, you are working at about what, 70% effort for the same speed? That lots of extra juice left for the run. "

Guess you don't watch much ITU. It's not like they're doing regular rotation group rides.

Reduced effort in the draft would be no different from holding back on the bike in the IM and saving it for the run. Seems that what's most of the IM champs have done. Only a few IM championships have been won coming off the bike.[/reply]

First off, I plead a great deal of ignorance regarding ITU racing. The concept fascinates me because it eliminates our favorite ST topic, drafting violations.

Perhaps 70% is a bogus number, but compared to what? That number could mean anything. I'm not talking about cruising a group ride, I'm talking about racing tactically, like any normal road race. I'm assuming that ITU racers can hang with faster riders and get set up for the run. That is not the same as holding back on the ride during an IM. Hold back in a IM and you are x minutes back at T2. Draft with the leaders in ITU and you are with the leaders at T2. Do I misunderstand?

Re: SEAT ANGLE AND FASTER TIMES [robcoltman] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 06 19:57

Post #24 of 37 (2479 views)

look at a race like chicago: non-drafting and the pros can still run sub 32 and there have been a handful of sub 31s, maybe a 29 high once.

Re: SEAT ANGLE AND FASTER TIMES [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 06 20:03

Post #25 of 37 (2474 views)

In Reply To:

In fact I'll bet most of the riders would chose not to ride overly steep in the TT. Realize that these are people that train 100,000 kms per year on the bike, most of it on their road bikes. They spend relatively little time on their TT bikes.......................... At 100,000 kms per year; now I know why they are so fast and have no time for their TT bikes. Interesting dialogue.

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