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Road bike recommendation from Cervelo RS lovers please
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Dear All,

I own a 2008 Cervelo RS size 56 which I've owned from new. I love it.
However, it's now clear it's a bit too small for me.

Question: I've randomly (thanks Brian) tried out a S5 VWD, Synapse Six and a Look 596. All were good but frankly left me cold. What would you recommend that has the "get-up and go" of the RS?

I'm 185 cm tall, 6ft in old money, with (from a FIST tri fit) "exceptional morphology": legs relatively long at ~32in. I'm 71 kg (156 lbs).

Background:
I also ride a 58 cm P5-3. I enjoy the efficiency of the P5 but it definitely hasn't got the same zing as the RS (expected). I've been tri training since 2011.

Back in 2010 I went to an experienced Italian road fitter who plonked a monster 110mm stem on the RS to get me in a better position. Which was better, but still feel I have the wrong size frame.
I love the immediacy of the RS, I've not ridden anything this far which has that characteristic.

Any guidance appreciated,


Shewey

---
Shewey

When you open up a can of whoopass, always make sure it's a large one
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Re: Road bike recommendation from Cervelo RS lovers please [shewey] [ In reply to ]
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Those subtle feelings of immediacy can defy analysis and even your own perceptions, so I think test rides, using your usual wheels are the only way if that is important to you.

The current R3 and R5 would be logical choices to try though.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Road bike recommendation from Cervelo RS lovers please [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks JM, interesting take. Wheels were ruled out, but I'll rule them back in.
More test rides are never a problem for me, perhaps there is no substitute.

All the best,


Shewey

[edit: typo]

---
Shewey

When you open up a can of whoopass, always make sure it's a large one
Last edited by: shewey: Jan 24, 14 13:09
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Re: Road bike recommendation from Cervelo RS lovers please [shewey] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, the obvious choice would be the current (i.e. newer Cervelo geometry) R3 which is a fine bike. Might be nice to expand your repertoire a bit though with other bikes (there are many other great road bikes). Just try to match geometry a bit. For example, Wilier tends to match well with the older RS geometry and I love(d) my Cento1. My current Boardman though (which I also love) would NOT match well to the geometry of your RS.

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD
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Re: Road bike recommendation from Cervelo RS lovers please [shewey] [ In reply to ]
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shewey wrote:
Dear All,

I own a 2008 Cervelo RS size 56 which I've owned from new. I love it.
However, it's now clear it's a bit too small for me.

Question: I've randomly (thanks Brian) tried out a S5 VWD, Synapse Six and a Look 596. All were good but frankly left me cold. What would you recommend that has the "get-up and go" of the RS?

I'm 185 cm tall, 6ft in old money, with (from a FIST tri fit) "exceptional morphology": legs relatively long at ~32in. I'm 71 kg (156 lbs).

Background:
I also ride a 58 cm P5-3. I enjoy the efficiency of the P5 but it definitely hasn't got the same zing as the RS (expected). I've been tri training since 2011.

Back in 2010 I went to an experienced Italian road fitter who plonked a monster 110mm stem on the RS to get me in a better position. Which was better, but still feel I have the wrong size frame.
I love the immediacy of the RS, I've not ridden anything this far which has that characteristic.

Any guidance appreciated,


Shewey


Why do you think the 56 is too small for you? I am 5'11 and have really long legs at close to 34" and I tried a 56 RS and felt like it was more frame than I needed so I switched out for a 54. For an old guy I ride a fairly good drop from seat to bars, but ride a fairly conventional 100 cm stem and the bike fits great. You are an inch taller than me and shorter legs. Are you trying to get more upright?

OK - I just re-read your original post. Do you feel like you are not stretched out enough? Not sure the latest philosophy in fitting, but I always rode a longish stem in the past 120mm usually, and a lot of pros ride 120 - even longer. If you feel like you need the reach of the 58, just throw a longer stem on it before you ditch the bike you love.
Last edited by: nickwisconsin: Jan 24, 14 20:09
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Re: Road bike recommendation from Cervelo RS lovers please [shewey] [ In reply to ]
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110mm is a monster stem? I ride 130 on my CAAD10 and even think about going up to 140. I would like to try a 120 on the next frame size up, but 130mm really isn't a big deal, much less 110mm.
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Re: Road bike recommendation from Cervelo RS lovers please [AaronT] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know anything about your fit other than the 110 stem (which Aaron is right, 110 would have meant that frame was way too big for you 20 years ago as we all had 120-130s), but from experience I might guess that part of the liveliness you feel in that bike is because of it's relatively small size compared to the others you're riding. A more compact frame can have different stiffness/damping characteristics that make it feel 'livelier' than a larger one, but even moreso, I'm a strong believer in the mental aspect of the small bike. My personal opinion is that your brain likes the look of a smaller bike under you, makes you feel big and strong. When i was racing in Europe many years ago, it was common for riders to talk about good days and bad days in terms like 'I had long legs today' or 'felt like I could crush my bicycle beneath me' while bad days were days where 'I couldn't get on top of my bike today', 'too much bike under me', 'short legs today' etc.. Combine that with the improved straight line stability you feel with a longer stem (it takes larger inputs to achieve similar steering angles) and your brain is happy.

I've participated in numerous blind product studies over the years where we controlled bikes or the wheels (I've done this twice with a bike manufacturer during development work around a pro team, and many times with wheels) with fabric shield tensioned between seat post and stem, flat black rattle can paint on everything, etc. In each of these studies, the entire subject group including pro riders, engineers, and other industry people with LOTS of experience, struggled to find any real differences between any of the bikes, until after the study was de-blinded and everybody (including me) instantly began to try and rationalize it all… This is just human nature, we all do it, and from experience, it is nearly impossible NOT to do it.

One of the major discoveries was that after controlling for seat post (round post shimmed into aero frame so as to not give it away) not a single rider found the aero road bike to be less comfortable, less compliant, etc, than the identically setup 'endurance' or 'roubaix' bike (clearly this leaves room for the aero seat post to be why people feel aero bikes are less compliant..seatposts generally have more effect on bike compliance in the lab than frames do, but that's another story). We ran blind wheel tests a couple of times a year at Zipp to benchmark competitive wheels and our own prototypes, and we also found that blinded riders were generally unable to tell the difference between stiffness and inertia, had no reliable feedback on weight, lateral stiffness, or comfort in general, and in the end were generally only able to pick out the aero wheels because they were riding laps around a closed park environment using power, so the more observant ones would notice speed differences. In the end, we sort of determined that when riders didn't know what they 'should' feel, they really struggled to find differences in stiffness, compliance and weight between frames or wheels. The strongest correlation we ever saw was to tire pressure, but not in the way you would expect. Almost everybody assumed the setups with lower tire pressure to be the endurance bike and would then score it exactly as you would expect a magazine review of a comfort bike to look…so we determined that we all naturally would latch onto something we were confident in, in this case comfort, and then would proceed to perceive everything you expected from that bike: less aero, less stiff, better damping, etc. Imagine the shock for the group when it turned out that the it might have been a super stiff race bike, or an aero road bike! Let the rationalizing begin!

During the 303 Roubaix development, we broke the entire bicycle system into component stiffnesses to try and determine the relative contributions of things to ride quality. We were shocked to find that the entire difference between the special, longer wheelbase, layup optimized, cobble specific frame, and the standard road frame (which everybody could tell you was WAY too stiff to ride on the cobbles) equated to a whopping 4psi of tire pressure. Similar result with wheels, turns out that the 32 spoke box section Amrosio rims the teams swore by had about 50% higher vertical stiffness than the 303…yet the riders swore up and down that the 303 was 'too stiff' until we blinded them, at which point the opinions became nearly random with a slight bias toward the carbon wheel as more comfortable, yet with the riders preferring the carbon wheel only willing to proclaim it because they are all certain that it was the aluminum one.

I'm working on a blog post for the SILCA website related to the story behind the first carbon wheels at Roubaix, I think people will find the journey and many of the results as fascinating as I did. In the mean time, if I were you I'd try riding as many bikes as you can get on and go with what feels right to you and under you. The ONLY factor that I've ever seen be actually influential across all test groups in all studies is aero, so if you're after speed, pay attention to it. Again, not that everybody can feel it in these studies, often times it isn't noticed at all, but it is always apparent in the data. When you put the power/speed data plots in front of the engineers, they have no idea or way to determineIf weight, inertia, compliance, stiffness, but they can instantly pick out the plots with aero wheels or frames. If you're not all about going fast then go with what you like and think works and enjoy yourself. After doing this for a long time, my criteria for my personal bike is based almost entirely on paint and people behind the company who made it, everything else is components and tire pressure.

Josh

http://www.SILCA.cc
Check out my podcast, inside stories from more than 20 years of product and tech innovation from inside the Pro Peloton and Pro Triathlon worlds!
http://www.marginalgainspodcast.cc
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Re: Road bike recommendation from Cervelo RS lovers please [shewey] [ In reply to ]
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I'm 6', and weigh about 205 lbs. My inseam goes around 31" and I ride a 54. I did feel a bit bunched up and have a 110 stem and feels okay. I would say the 56 is about right. I thought at my size I was a 56, but my shorter Asian legs have me at a 54.

I would consider another stem, and depending on the fit, maybe pulling back the seat back a tad. Do you feel bunched up?
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Re: Road bike recommendation from Cervelo RS lovers please [joshatsilca] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Road bike recommendation from Cervelo RS lovers please [shewey] [ In reply to ]
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shewey wrote:
However, it's now clear it's a bit too small for me.
...
Italian road fitter who plonked a monster 110mm stem on the RS to get me in a better position

Someone isn't computing for me here. Why is it "clear" that the bike is too small? What aspects of your fit/comfort aren't working for you?

I'd almost never consider a 110mm stem large unless the rider is, like 4 feet tall. For example, when I'm looking at road bikes for myself (a bit taller than you) I use 120mm stems as the starting point for evaluating geometries.

Are you in pain in your position? Are there any aspects of your setup that are at an extreme? (Seat post really high or low, saddle all the way forward or back, a bajillion spacers or severe negative rise stem... I'd say the stem length is right in the sweetspot )
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Re: Road bike recommendation from Cervelo RS lovers please [joshatsilca] [ In reply to ]
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Great story.
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Re: Road bike recommendation from Cervelo RS lovers please [shewey] [ In reply to ]
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I'm a bit heavier than you but the same height and leg length. I have a 56cm Cervelo RS. It does feel different than my P3 but it's supposed to. Try a new fitting at a LBS and see if it helps before spending more on a larger frame bike. No recommendations on a different bike though, I'd hate to have to find a replacement for my RS.


---------------------------------------------------------
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -- A fake Albert Einstein "quote"
Last edited by: KonaCoffee: Jan 25, 14 9:03
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Re: Road bike recommendation from Cervelo RS lovers please [joshatsilca] [ In reply to ]
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Wow -- thanks for that very enlightening post! I always look forward to reading you, Josh.

AndyF
bike geek
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Re: Road bike recommendation from Cervelo RS lovers please [joshatsilca] [ In reply to ]
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So...you're saying I was onto something back in 2007? ;-)

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...%20vertical;#1409898

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Road bike recommendation from Cervelo RS lovers please [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
So...you're saying I was onto something back in 2007? ;-)

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...%20vertical;#1409898

Physics never expires!
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Re: Road bike recommendation from Cervelo RS lovers please [joshatsilca] [ In reply to ]
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Huge thanks to everyone for the rapid opinions/info/advice/questions in response to my question, you guys are truly great.
I'm away this weekend and will respond properly early next week, i just wanted to quickly express my gratitude.

I can clarify that I got the length of the RS stem totally wrong, but I don't have it to measure. Comparing to the 110 stem on my tri bike, the stem the fitter added to the RS would be easily 140 or larger; honestly, it really did look monstrous. I'll try and track it down. Sorry about the mixup.

---
Shewey

When you open up a can of whoopass, always make sure it's a large one
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Re: Road bike recommendation from Cervelo RS lovers please [shewey] [ In reply to ]
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That seems backwards, I can comfortable ride a 56 or 58 R3, I went with the 58(110 stem) since I was on the edge of the seat height on the 56. (classic geo) but ride a 56 p3c and p5, the 58 TT bike was way too long for me even with a 90 stem. Wish I would I have got the 56 road bike after riding my buddies more, much more "snappy feelng".

In terms of the blind tests below my wife wouldn't buy a specialized ruby because it was too soft and got the amira instead, wonder how much of that was placebo effect so to speak....
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Re: Road bike recommendation from Cervelo RS lovers please [joshatsilca] [ In reply to ]
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What a great post. Thanks for sharing.
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Re: Road bike recommendation from Cervelo RS lovers please [joshatsilca] [ In reply to ]
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People who do parkour think walls are shorter:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=21936305
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Re: Road bike recommendation from Cervelo RS lovers please [joshatsilca] [ In reply to ]
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"After doing this for a long time, my criteria for my personal bike is based almost entirely on paint and people behind the company who made it, everything else is components and tire pressure."

Well, let's hope the Silca reinvigoration works out because with honest assessments like that a future at a frame or wheel manufacturer is looking grim. ;)
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Re: Road bike recommendation from Cervelo RS lovers please [shewey] [ In reply to ]
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What size frame was the S5, Synapse and Look? A larger frame might not have that same feeling of "zip" simply because the frames tested are larger. It doesn't mean they don't have the same "zip" it just doesn't feel the same.

PS I'm 5'11" with 32" inseam and ride a 56CM S2 (2011 geometry), curious why you think it is tool small?


Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca
Last edited by: rbuike: Sep 2, 14 8:57
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Re: Road bike recommendation from Cervelo RS lovers please [Sasquatch] [ In reply to ]
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Make a good product. A good product that's pretty. Stand behind that product. Seems like a pretty easy recipe for success.

/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/
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Re: Road bike recommendation from Cervelo RS lovers please [joshatsilca] [ In reply to ]
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well making that public is not exactly in the bike manufacturers interest..........
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Re: Road bike recommendation from Cervelo RS lovers please [shewey] [ In reply to ]
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I am 6 feet and ride the 56 new 2014 R3. Love it. Have a zero offset seatpost and a 120 stem. You also might look at the S2/S3 -- both are comfy and aero-fast.
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