It would be interesting to see the actual results and also to what benchmark they are using for raw sewage for viruses. Those numbers can range all the way up to 100,000 counts per Liter. Typical lakes and reservoirs have counts 1-10 per liter and impacted rivers and streams have around 30-60 counts per liter. (Source: http://www.who.int/...lth/dwq/fulltext.pdf). I would say its safe to say that the counts were greater than the 1,000 threshold cited in the article for California. Given all that, and my background as an environmental biologist, I wouldn't step foot in that water unless you are okay with getting sick.

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Train to race. Race to win.

Are the water testing agency just going through the motions?

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Swim. Overbike. Walk.

It is comparably easy to treat waste water to remove bacteria (as they will die off pretty fast), but it isn't that easy to quickly get rid of the viruses.

okay, but why? why do you say that? is ecoli and enterococcus a reliable indicator of viruses or not? if not, then what body of water are you comfortable setting foot in?

if so - which is what every agency everywhere (practically) maintains - then we're left with: the AP claims to have results - unpublished - that contradicts conventional thinking.

drinking water is different. my water comes from my own wells. i get my water tested. when i ask the lab what the threshold for fecal coliform is they say, "1". this is different.

why would copacabana be different than olympic lake? ocean versus lake. would it be different than another part of the beach? depends. rivers? raw sewage running into the ocean?

would you do the malibu triathlon? malibu is full of septic tanks. the whole city. literally the dirty little secret.

to me, data matters. if the AP has the data, i'd like to see it. mind, you might be very right. but i would just like to see the test. no reason why the AP shouldn't publish the test. me, were it my story, i'd have put the tests on my server and provided links in the article. the AP chose not to do that.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"Are the water testing agency just going through the motions?"

we have double verification that the water is, by generally accepted standards, clean. first we have the agency's own tests (and we know who the testing agency is, per the front page article). second, we have the AP's own statement that copacabana beach has not returned a test above accepted thresholds. at least, not for bacterial infection.

but it seems like the AP is saying that viral levels are at the rate of "raw sewage" for copacabana. you read the article, see what you think it says.

but if it's going to make that claim, i'd like to see the test results. if i wrote an article saying that the schwinn flyer has the aerodnamic qualities of raw sewage you'd all be all over me to publish the results to back up my claim, would you not? is it appropriate that you do so? yes. therefore...

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

AP certainly isn't the rainbow press.
The scientists cited seem to have pretty good credentials when it comes to environmental sciences.
Sure, it is somewhat alarmist and sensational, but that does not mean it has no merit.

I would not do any race in SoCal after a rainstorm, or where there are no currents (as in a protected bay or inlet and/or highly developed area). Malibu would be safe as long as there is no rain.
But you certainly couldn't convince me to swim anywhere at the mid SF peninsula or lower SF bay.

Again, bacteria aren't viruses. Some viruses are really stable and it takes extensive treatment procedures to remove them from waste water. Enterobacteria are a good indicator of water quality in general (as viruses and bacteria occur together), but their absence does not equal safety.

I do not know what Rio did to clean up their waste water problem, but I would think it would be somewhat of a quick fix. How many new treatment plans did they built? How many miles of sewer lines?

Without that knowledge, I wouldn't lean out the window and proclaim: "No bacteria, therefor the water is safe."

Although a test for bacteria and a test for viruses both give a general idea about water quality and to that the extent of sewage in the system but testing for bacteria only assumes the relationship between virsuses, bacteria and sewage are all the same. They are not, as easily indicated by the results the AP reported. They didn't find any bacteria levels but virus levels were present. The exact cause of this would need to be looked at. In a typical US riverway testing for bacteria will most likely give you the information that you need to make decisions however in some cases this is not true as not all rivers, lakes and such have a human influence. Bacteria, such as e. coli, can be introduced into a system through other forms of feces, not just humans. Thats why you never want to get your water from downstream of a farm.

Current flows and other things can bring the viruses to the triathlon beach while by the same time the bacteria may have already died off. Thats just one possibly explanation for whats going on in Brazil. Many others can also be a cause. I study only freshwater systems so I couldn't tell you what affect sea versus freshwater may have on it.

But here is the take home message I have...Who cares what the level of bacteria are at this point, the results show that there are high levels of viruses and from the little information presented I would say at levels that can cause people to get sick.

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Train to race. Race to win.

"The scientists cited seem to have pretty good credentials when it comes to environmental sciences."

some yes, some no. some were specialists in epidemiology, which makes them no more experts than you and i regarding water quality. others were experts in water quality. i spoke to one on the phone, who promised to follow up with the test results for viral counts in copacabana beach.

to me, this is the question. i don't care about olympic lake. we know that the bacterial count is low in copacabana beach. the quesion is the viral load in that water.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"Who cares what the level of bacteria are at this point, the results show that there are high levels of viruses"

we'll see. note my post just above. i'm awaiting the tests from copacabana beach, from one of the environmental health experts who was quoted in the article. she does not remember what the viral count was at copacabana; she's going to check when she returns to her office and let me know, and then i'll post it here.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

It will be interesting to see the results. Thanks for tracking them down. The threshold to which they can be compared to is debatable since the real threshold is 0 for what you want in your drinking water but if its significantly above what you would typically find in an impacted water system and close to what you would find in raw sewage I would have reason for concern. Less so if you just swam in it the day of the race and that was it but that wouldn't be good for getting prepped for the race.

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Train to race. Race to win.

They aren't testing for enough compounds and noxious substances, I'm sure. Read "Toms River". The crap in many of our lakes, rivers, streams, and oceans is an abomination. Without spending about $20,000 on testing, you can only speculate, and ditto for the AP.

When I do a race, I assume the water is full of noxious shit. I've survived 157 races, so I've either been very lucky, very stupid, or both.

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

Obvious fail on my part with the joke then.

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Swim. Overbike. Walk.

over my head. sorry.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

My N=4 sample, I have family in Rio and vacation there most years. I have swum at Copacabana with my kids on almost every trip. It not our favorite beach - Baja Tijuca where the Olympic Village will be held is cleaner ( around the peninsula and washed by different currents) and my favorite beach in the world.

I've been to Rio 25+ times. it is a wonderful city, safe and clean, with a bit of 3rd world funkiness to let you know you are not in London/Chicago/Sydney. I've been stumbling drunk at sunrise after carnival parties wandering down the streets and never had a problem, eaten street food, fine dining and my dozens of aunts home cooking without any trouble. I'll be there for the games with a cowbell at the Tri - I hope to see a few of you there!

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" I take my gear out of my car and put my bike together. Tourists and locals are watching from sidewalk cafes. Non-racers. The emptiness of of their lives shocks me. "
(opening lines from Tim Krabbe's The Rider , 1978

http://t.co/LvrMd8NXOX


So it looks like someone didn't do your job... my portugese is bad, but impropria is quite clear. Report is from july 27th.

Rua Francisco Otaviano is almost were the swim is taking place. They are in the protected area of copacabana.

By the way... A lot of athletes were sick after stockholm...

"So it looks like someone didn't do your job... my portugese is bad"

on your portuguese i can't opine, but about your english, what does "it looks like someone didn't do your job" mean?

below is the test from just under a week ago from copacabana beach.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Your link doesn't work, but I found this from the date you indicated:


http://www.inea.rj.gov.br/cs/groups/public/documents/document/zwff/mda5/~edisp/inea_009193.pdf

Looks like a mixed bag along the copa, even when just looking at the coliforms.

While the AP article is likely alarmist (and in today's world most journalism seems to be), are the facts correct about the lack of proper water treatment plants being built? These aren't built quickly and if so, cannot possibly be done in time for next year. And if the beach was fine without them, then why the need for them to be promised as part of the Olympic bid? The truth obviously lies somewhere inbetween.

Of course Beijing just got awarded the Winter Olympics for 2022 and has promised to clean up the air quality before then. Which they were supposed to have done for the last Olympics they had. Maybe athletes just need to be ready for all sorts of nasty things, because this world isn't getting any cleaner.

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Ian

it is my sense from the article that Olympic Lake is a huge mess. and some of the ocean beaches as well.

my interest is in the specific swim venue, for triathlon and open water swimming. this is the cleanest venue tested. it passes the tests as well as relatively clean california beaches.

but the tests are all for bacterial organisms. i'm awaiting the tests on viruses, which will be forthcoming.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I was living in China for a year or two before and during the Beijing Olympics and I can tell you they did a miraculous job cleaning the air and water pollution up for the Olympic events. They pulled every trick in the book from cloud seeding to removing cars/trucks from the roads to closing/moving entire industries to removing masses of people from Beijing and stopping all construction activities to eliminate airborne particulate matter. As the entire country was pretty much "all-in" and China being China, there was not a peep to be heard about costs or complaints. All temporary and short term solutions but they worked great and they delivered bluebird conditions for the period. Not much of it stuck however. Not many countries can pull that kind of response off.

Thanks for your research. The real question is this, can they really cancel the swim?
The real solution is just to move north the swim, outside the protected area.

Just wondering how the public agency is calling the water improper on July 27th and ITU is still saying that the water is clean.

In Slowman opinion, ITU is right... and calling out AP investigation not credible or incomplete...

In my books, it's too common to see athletes getting sick after a swim. Athletes are generally under protected with this scenario.

exemple, ITU didn't respect his rules book at Cape Town (two time in a row) and the race will still be on the calendar at the same time of the year even if we saw an fatality in AG. Caused by the cold water? Again, some top athletes were wise enough to avoid this race.

Two year ago, an elite athlete almost die after racing the French Grand Prix in Nice. He spent one month in the hospital.

An well known ITU athlete got sick after a swim in an urban city. It costs her almost all her season and they finally found that she caught a bacttery during a WTS.

That's doesn't means that we can't believe ITU, but it's right to be suspicious. The AP article is more than welcome.

After IM NYC, I'm certain most triathletes would swim in a septic holding tank if it meant getting an Olympic medal or qualifying for Kona, or just getting that bucket list IM. Many of the venues are not far from a septic tank.... That's one of the big reasons I like races like MT and Cozumel. We are losing places to swim, bike and run....

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

Well, looks like the race is on and the bacteria levels were up due to rain and "only outside" of the swim course.

I know that I wouldn't be swimming. I am somewhat used to (immunized against) the California (Malibu) germs, but would be worried about the Brazilians.

I think it is the same game in every larger beach town on this planet.

You need the tourism and the money.
In case of a big event and questionable "recreational" water, you take a "calculated" risk.

Post some signs way off to the side, publish inconspicuous beach reports and keep your fingers crossed nobody will sue.