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Reading the tea leaves from a 'big' training day gone south...
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WWSD?


This is long but I've tried to include all relevant info. Looking for some experience and/or insight. In short my pre-IM (IMMT) 'big day' of training went south and I'm not sure what to take out of it. I'd say training to date has gone well but after yesterday I am left with more doubt than confidence. I'm attempting to cement MOP status at the IM distance and was feeling good about it until yesterday.


Training summary to date for 2012 is 3,100 miles biking, and 1,100 miles running and a bunch of open water swimming this spring/summer. At the 70.3 in Tremblant I put up a 23 min PR at the distance and after biking at AP=175w/NP=200w (19.1 mph) was able to run strong (for me) the whole way consistently running 8:45/mile to finish with a 1:53 (open PR of 1:43 on a downhill course). I have a boat load of 40-50 mile rides (at 200+ watts and occasionally running 5 miles after for 'transition' purposes) and last 5 weeks a 80-90 mile ride (at 180 watts) feeling pretty decent throughout all of them. My run fitness (for me) is feeling good with a handful of comfortable 20 milers and a slew of 16 milers all done at 9:00/mile. This week was my big week in terms of volume, coming in at 200 miles on the bike and 45 miles on the run (or 20 hours total including swims). After my 90 mile ride last week I raced an international du the next day in scorching heat and had no trouble running 8:00/mi in both runs (fast for me - see above).


So yesterday I attempted my 'big day' race simulation with a 2 mile swim, taking a short break and then heading out on the bike. Started to feel the power just drop out after about 4 hours on the bike. Soldiered through a difficult 2 hours to finish up the bike. Oddly enough in looking at the files my avg power was about the same for the first 4 hours vs the last 2 hours (although VI/NP came down in the last 2 hours). My goal effort for the bike was AP=165w/NP=180w which I fell just short of at AP=161w/NP=177w (for 17 mph - gah!).


After getting off the bike and changing clothes, having a snack/water I felt a fair bit better than I did on the last 2 hours of the bike and headed out to attempt the 10 mile run. Short story is I made it 5 miles and quit. HR wouldn't come down under 170 and felt mild difficulty in breathing/dizziness etc.. Legs were a little tired but they didn't seem to be the limitation. I was attempting to run 9:30/mi. Potential factor: despite drinking over 6 litres of water (~ 200 oz) during the bike I never had to pee, seems like a warning sign in retrospect. Lastly - frustrated by yesterday's conclusion I joined Mrs. Rhino on her long run this morning instead of taking the day off and very comfortably ran 10 miles at 9:45/mile with the HR staying nice and even in the low 130's (140's on the uphills) despite it being hot and shadeless. I actually feel pretty good today considering the 8 hour training day yesterday.


So my question is how to apply the accumulated knowledge from yesterday/today to maximize success in 4 weeks at IMMT?


Is my bike fitness so much lower than I thought that I should revise my target wattage (150w?) and look for a solution to keep it under 200w on the hills (good luck to me heading to Lac Superior)? Would resigning myself to a 7 hour bike split setup running the marathon? Am I just strung out at this point and can expect a similar output on the bike will allow me to run 10:00/mi with the recovery from the taper period coming up? Would ensuring I take in enough liquid to have to pee at least once (twice?) on the bike have prevented the meltdown on the run? Lastly - should I bump up the long rides in my taper weeks (at least the first two) to get another couple century rides in or is it to late at this point to scramble for bike endurance? I was hoping to parlay my 5:30 at IMMT 70.3 into a 12:xx at the full - is this wishful thinking based on the above?
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Re: Reading the tea leaves from a 'big' training day gone south... [TheRhino] [ In reply to ]
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One day doesn't mean shit. You said it in your first paragraph, training to date has gone well. Trust the training and chalk this up as a bad day and be glad it happened today and not on race day.
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Re: Reading the tea leaves from a 'big' training day gone south... [TheRhino] [ In reply to ]
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Tell us about your nutrition......unless I missed it. How many calories per hour were you consuming? You can pretty much "fake" your nutrition for a half and do fine but not a full IM.

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Reading the tea leaves from a 'big' training day gone south... [ICSTG] [ In reply to ]
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Trust me - that's how I want to feel but I don't want the run in 4 weeks to end the same way so trying to avoid over confidence.
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Re: Reading the tea leaves from a 'big' training day gone south... [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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sciguy wrote:
Tell us about your nutrition......unless I missed it. How many calories per hour were you consuming? You can pretty much "fake" your nutrition for a half and do fine but not a full IM.

Approx 250 cals per hour in the form of GU gels and two Clif bars. Not enough water I think and perhaps not enough salt? Tri suit was caked with salt after the ride too.
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Re: Reading the tea leaves from a 'big' training day gone south... [TheRhino] [ In reply to ]
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have you ever had a nice cold coke on a day like this? that might have been something that would have helped...maybe.
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Re: Reading the tea leaves from a 'big' training day gone south... [TheRhino] [ In reply to ]
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TheRhino wrote:
WWSD?


So yesterday I attempted my 'big day' race simulation with a 2 mile swim, taking a short break and then heading out on the bike. Started to feel the power just drop out after about 4 hours on the bike. Soldiered through a difficult 2 hours to finish up the bike. Oddly enough in looking at the files my avg power was about the same for the first 4 hours vs the last 2 hours (although VI/NP came down in the last 2 hours). My goal effort for the bike was AP=165w/NP=180w which I fell just short of at AP=161w/NP=177w (for 17 mph - gah!).

Are you intentionally targeting a 1.09 VI? There seems to be a good deal of at least anecdotal evidence that keeping you VI closer to 1.03 or so leads to both a better bike split as well as a much happier run. It looks as if you're hammering the hills too hard just from that one piece of data and then coasting the downhills. What's your gearing set up?

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Reading the tea leaves from a 'big' training day gone south... [littlefoot] [ In reply to ]
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I grabbed a Cream Soda at hour 5 actually when refilling my water. Tasted friggin' amazing but can't quantify it's benefit beyond another 170 cals of sugar.
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Re: Reading the tea leaves from a 'big' training day gone south... [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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sciguy wrote:
Are you intentionally targeting a 1.09 VI? There seems to be a good deal of at least anecdotal evidence that keeping you VI closer to 1.03 or so leads to both a better bike split as well as a much happier run. It looks as if you're hammering the hills too hard just from that one piece of data and then coasting the downhills. What's your gearing set up?

Not intentionally but at 160 lbs with a compact crank and a 12/27 on the back when the road tips upwards it takes 230w to keep me moving forwards (at least it will to get up to Lac Superior). Wondering if transitioning to an Apex cage at the back with a 32 might be necessary. Shameful perhaps, but maybe necessary.
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Re: Reading the tea leaves from a 'big' training day gone south... [TheRhino] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Contador went to an Apex for the 32 in the mountains. If it's good enough for a super star like him as an astronomical watts/kg then it should be fine with any mere mortals.

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Reading the tea leaves from a 'big' training day gone south... [TheRhino] [ In reply to ]
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High Heart Rates at a given effort are most often a sign of dehydration.

I have a couple of other comments.

1. You mentioned some long rides and some long runs but this was the big race simulation. Similar to what sciguy said, you can fake it through a bike bike or a big run, but trying to do both and not getting it right, it will show up.

2. Many people with successful iron distance run splits are taking in 2.0 or more calories per pound per hour on the bike. Unless you weigh 125, you seem low on that regard. Asking around, some other coaches are slightly over that number. Every ironman winner's nutrition plan that I have seen (granted it is only 4 of them) have been 2.25 or over.

3. You didn't mention temperature. I know in my own case the big race simulation run is going to be held at mid day or later while runs are generally held in the morning. If you always train in cooler weather then that could have been part of the issue.

4. Mostly I'd think dehydration though, think about what you did the day before and what you did at breakfast the day of the big workout.
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Re: Reading the tea leaves from a 'big' training day gone south... [TheRhino] [ In reply to ]
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Unless I missed it what is your critical power/threshold on the bike?

D.

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
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Re: Reading the tea leaves from a 'big' training day gone south... [Kevin in MD] [ In reply to ]
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I'm starting to think the calories and water were both deficient. Thanks for the input.
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Re: Reading the tea leaves from a 'big' training day gone south... [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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tilburs wrote:
Unless I missed it what is your critical power/threshold on the bike?

Based on trainer and outdoor tests I've been figuring 240w, which brought me to my target 200w for the 70.3 that seemed to work. Likewise the 165w target for IM test day (hoping to leave some on the table if anything).
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Re: Reading the tea leaves from a 'big' training day gone south... [TheRhino] [ In reply to ]
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It sounds like we're in about the same boat. Did you ride both loops in 6 hours? If so, that's a big positive. I've tried and failed twice ;-) You've got a great base and you knew what to expect from the course (I shudder to think about the number of folks, especially first-timers, who won't have ridden the course and will find themselves "in a spot of bother" on the second loop). This just sounds like dehydration (only because I had a similar experience there a few weeks ago I have to wonder if an aero helmet fried you the way mine fried me). On race day we'll have all the fluids we need at hand. It sounds like you ought to fuel more for the run on the bike, too. I bet race day goes much better. I have to believe that because my target watts and finish goal are about the same, and I'm working through the same kind of doubts (plus a hamstring injury) right now. Taper will take care of everything.
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Re: Reading the tea leaves from a 'big' training day gone south... [TheRhino] [ In reply to ]
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TheRhino wrote:
I'm starting to think the calories and water were both deficient. Thanks for the input.

Aren't you glad you're figuring this out today and not on race day, that's the good news from the workout.
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Re: Reading the tea leaves from a 'big' training day gone south... [TheRhino] [ In reply to ]
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I think those are wise choices.

As others have said, at your weight calories seem the most likely contributory factor.

David

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
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Re: Reading the tea leaves from a 'big' training day gone south... [TheRhino] [ In reply to ]
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Kudos for you to reflect (hansei) on your day. One of the best ways to learn is by honestly and critically looking back at what we have done and the results we achieved. Not a lot of people do this.


Everyone has a bad day once in a while. Don't let it ruin what you've built up to date.

And while I'm no IM studette, I have in my 3 IMs passed a LOT of people on the run by taking it very conservatively on the bike. Maybe that's what you will need to do as well. However, the excitement of race day will make it difficult to have any such discipline. :-)


But mostly (as most wrote earlier) you need to eat more - especially after the swim/early on the bike. Once it gets hotter during the day, you'll be less inclined to want to eat so fuel up while you are focused and conscious about doing it.


Reflect, learn, then drop the rest and move on.


Good luck!
AP

------------------------
"How bad could it be?" - SimpleS
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Re: Reading the tea leaves from a 'big' training day gone south... [TheRhino] [ In reply to ]
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TheRhino wrote:
sciguy wrote:
Are you intentionally targeting a 1.09 VI? There seems to be a good deal of at least anecdotal evidence that keeping you VI closer to 1.03 or so leads to both a better bike split as well as a much happier run. It looks as if you're hammering the hills too hard just from that one piece of data and then coasting the downhills. What's your gearing set up?


Not intentionally but at 160 lbs with a compact crank and a 12/27 on the back when the road tips upwards it takes 230w to keep me moving forwards (at least it will to get up to Lac Superior). Wondering if transitioning to an Apex cage at the back with a 32 might be necessary. Shameful perhaps, but maybe necessary.

A few things:

1. The most appropriate VI is based on course terrain. Given the profile I've seen for that course, the right VI would be more like 1.05 - 1.06 (depending on how many bikes are around you). If it was modeled, it would probably look more like 1.04 but nobody can really replicate the models anyway.

2. If your FTP is ~240w then you can probably climb as hard as 210w (for short durations) and you'll likely have to get up the 12% grade. Just get the right cassette and don't worry about being shameful. Most people are over-geared. My FTP is ~270w and I'm probably going to go with an 11-28 cassette at IMC this year (w/ a 50-34 compact). Your goal is to be steady and keep power within a (relatively) narrow range and the right gearing is only going to help you do that.

3. As far as your day is concerned, for the most part, don't let one day overly consume you. You need data from multiple rides/days. Obviously you need to take a good hard look at calories/hydration when things like this happen.

Thanks, Chris
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