Please quote me exactly where I am defending the accused runner. Nor am I "shaming" the guy who runs that website. I have not named him nor accused him of wrong doing. I don't agree with his tactics, however. If that is "shaming" him, well, that is his issue. Glass houses and all that,mi suppose. I also never said anything about "doing nothing". In fact, I specifically said he should work with race organizers and directors re: his suspicions.

As for your implication re: my ethical behavior.....that's pretty funny.

Concraps....you are batting .000.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Ummm, I'm arguing your exact point. Check underlined. Match to my post. 1986 agrees.

You are right. he may not have the responsibility or the authority. Nor do you or I have the responsibility or authority to judge the cheater, or the outer.

But we do have a forum for it ... and members with Julie Miller's blood, fresh on their pitchforks ...

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What are you people, on dope?

—Mr. Hand

I wander how long before somebody sues the investigator guy for defamation or something like that.

I ran a 2:58 marathon and got off the gas big time for the last 5km as I had my sub 3 goal in the bag (and the suffering was starting to ramp dramatically). On its face, dropping pace at the end isn't too suspicious to me. Starting slow and ending slow is suspicious which is your comment I believe.

The kicker is, if he is 3:0X capable he should have a shit load of training logs demonstrating volume or speed. He should be able to run a sub 20 5km, ~40m 10k, sub 1:30 half fairly easily.

I think this guy is doing a great job. He's doing a service that the RD's are not doing. Does he have authority to investigate? Of course. All he is doing is gathering public information the runners willingly put on the internet for all to see. We all have the authority to do that.

He does NOT have authority to DQ or ban anyone - so he uses the information he gathers to try to convince those with authority to do it when the evidence is incontrovertible. Nothing wrong with this either.

And I think he really does not come to conclusions about cheating without evidence that is 100% convincing - at least not that I have seen yet. And he makes every effort to let the accused respond and provide exculpatory data before publishing.

I think the risk that someone's reputation would be irreparably damaged if a less thorough investigator just posted a differential between BQ and Boston time and declared that as evidence of cheating is low - not because someone won't do something stupid like that but because the running community won't take it seriously if they do.

If RD's won't take measures to catch cheaters doing something as simple as just skipping a loop of the race while sitting in the porta potty or smelling the flowers or whatever the hell this guy did, then they are really failing at their responsibility to provide a fair race. This is not sophisticated cheating. So if the RD won't do it, this guy does. Great! Without efforts like this, there are some serious cheats that would still be out there doing it.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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The thing bothers me more about this, is that at some point there is going to be someone that's a habitual cheater who has a track record or mental health problems and having been destroyed online they harm themselves or worse. I seriously wonder whether the anger and vitriol would continue, or at what point people would let it go.

I'd have thought that having simply destroyed someones professional and personal reputation would be sufficient, but not here. Not a week goes by without the boot going in again on JM - and others - and whilst I do not know the woman and I'm not apologizing for her behavior, I'm pretty certain that we (the collective we) have had more than our pound of flesh, and that the consequence of the public lashings take their toll and that on more than one occasion the person bearing the brunt of it has gone and done something stupid, and then what will everyone here be saying?

I believe that here lies an opportunity for Slowtwitch to take a leadership role amongst this emerging online vigilantism:

Discovery of cheaters is analogous to the discovery of software exploits in the early 90's: there were many, thinking about the security of your server wasn't a full time job, and the hackers who knew of these holes were generally good people. But like any smart person just knowing wasn't good enough and these hackers started posting the code (and proof) online. This lowered the bar somewhat and less scrupulous people starting using these exploits for more nefarious means. (Sure its more complicated, but this was the _general_ spirit of the era). Along came this chap who proposed a "responsible disclosure protocol" (for the interested this was Jeff Forristal under the pseudonym rainforestpuppy//rfp, read it here: https://dl.packetstormsecurity.net/...ral/rfpolicy-2.0.txt). This single document focussed thinking around this problem is such a way that transformed the industry.

There must be a way that we can engage in such efforts to seek out those that tarnish the spirit of the sport—but in a manner that is consistent, transparent, and fair. If we do not do so, we condemn ourselves to the endless debate on the ethics of a particular event, method, investigator, or query. We can absolutely engage in such sleuthing—you will probably find that it is some deep entrenched component of the human psyche—but again not at the expense of tarnishing an innocent or not affording them due process.

What's this?
Are you actually calling someone's reputation into question with this last phrase purely because they have questioned the ethical implications of something which undeniably has ethical questions associated with it?

I think you just made Power13's argument for him. Look how easy it is to throw around accusations. The way I read it, you just implied Power13 has a vested interest of some sort and is perhaps cheating. Is this what you are implying?

I think you you need to clarify that and in fact owe Power13 an apology.

they won't because they know they're cheaters.

if they genuinely did these times they would provide evidence to back up their times either with gps data files for the event, or training data to back up their true capabilities and subsequently sue him.

it appears this investigator has given this guy an opportunity to provide further evidence which has actually back-fired and proved the cheat he is.

knobs like this deserve all they get and if he loses clients from his fitness business as a result i can't see many people feeling sorry for him.

i think the questions some are trying to ask here is, "who is this random man on the internet to "offer" me the opportunity to provide evidence that i didn't cheat? whether or not i train with GPS, maybe i don't feel like sharing it with some stranger who's decided my performance doesn't match his arbitrary standard of plausibility.

if i accuse someone of stealing, or beating their spouse or something, and then say, "hey, no problem - just offer me some evidence that you didn't" . . . many of us would consider that unacceptable.

we see this in other fields all the time: the accusation that, say, a schoolteacher abused a student, always goes on page 1. the retraction is usually buried on page 17.

do "knobs like this" really deserve all they get? if we prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he cheated, or if he confesses, does he really deserve to lose his clients? should he be unemployed and on the breadline because he cheated in a running race? what kind of punishment would you consider too much?

-mike

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https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

x1000

Seriously people, getting outed on the internet IS right...it IS the consequences in this day and age. People like this bask in the glory of false achievements on the internet, they can deal with the fallout there too. You think a DQ from a race director is a consequence for willfully stealing a spot at a championship race from another athlete?

I have to say this is one of the more egregious cases I have seen. My pitch fork is out.

+1

Agreed. This isn't really about vilifying people, it's about trying to reduce the number of fraudulent entries to major marathons using fraudulent GFA times. There are 'victims' here, the people who run genuine qualifying times yet still miss-out due to fraudulent activity.

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29 years and counting

this type of internet "outing" is simply the way the world works nowadays.

if i was one of his clients, based on what i have read on the internet, i wouldn't use him anymore unless he could come up with factual data to disprove what is being said. the fact it hasn't been proved in court i couldn't care less.

these people use the internet/social media to increase their public/business image for £££s which is fine (with no verification of any actual performance results) so what's wrong with someone questioning what they are claiming to have done?

if any business made an advert that appeared to be misleading and untrue the advertising watchdog would make them prove it was truthful with hard evidence.

I agree, he is using social media as a means to bring in more clients and making a profit. He will just have to take his lumps.

Just want to share that I totally pr'd my 5k on a training run yesterday! 16:32...I'm just pissed watch died at mi .1

I do find it ironic that a guy that looks waaaayyyy more fit than I do has to cheat his way into Boston. I've got to think that with his general fitness and youth, he should be able to legitimately BQ with the right training. Maybe he needs a good running coach?

So much irony here. I've got to think he'll be looking for a new job.

As for the internet witch hunts, he's putting everything out there on social media: twitter, strava, facebook, .... how naive do you have to be to think nobody (especially the athletes that you coach!) is going to piece it together?

I love these witch hunts for the entertainment value they bring but people often overlook or ignore the collateral damage.

My job revolves around standards and burdens of proof. Beyond a reasonable doubt, probable cause, reasonable belief, etc are just part of my everyday life. Obviously outing cheaters isn't a court of law so there a no rules per se but people should be mindful of the carnage that could ensue going down the path of outing cheaters. Eventually someone is going to get it wrong and that's going to be ugly.

Mike raises some good questions. Maybe this guy is a good coach and mentor. Does he deserve to lose that business because of this? Does Julie Miller deserve to lose her coaching and counseling business? I don't know. What I will say is that from my experience, people willing to cheat, defraud, lie, steal, or whatever are people that do that in many facets of their life. The guy willing to embezzle money from his company is likely cheating on his wife and his taxes as well. Things like that. People that are willing to cut corners (figuratively and literally) at every opportunity.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

IMO, the better approach would be for the BAA, in the case of bost marathon qualifiers, to have stricter requirements for races that serve as boston qualifiers. ensure proper number of timing mats, if their are chip or mat failures make sure further investigation is done.

it's about both. and that's my problem with it. People are vilifying people. Vilifying cheaters won't stop future cheaters. As a license armchair psychologist ;), I would argue the psychology of cheaters at this level (cheating for to gain entrance to big events) is not such that they will be deterred by others previously being vilified.

Seems like if Google can make a self driving car and Space-X can land rockets autonomously, we should be able to easily catch cheaters if the race data is provided in a useable format.

Hell, we should be able to flag results before they cross the finish line.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

But the 'outer' is only presenting facts, not heresay. And he's giving the runner ample opportunity to provide an explanation for the irregular times (an explanation, by the way, that is weak at best) or any other evidence of being able to achieve his times. "Oh yeah - I ran a 3:08 marathon by myself on the west side..." isn't very good evidence. This is also someone who has used a number of social media outlets to boast about his achievements and boost his coaching brand.

The reality is that there have always been cheats at races, but it's historically been very difficult to catch them and out them. Digital advances have changed that, whether it's time stamps on photos, GPS watches, more electronic timing mats, etc. Combined with the age of social media now means we have the means to track cheats, and publicly out them. Evidently RDs don't have the time or inclination to do this effectively, leaving it to others to do the leg work.

I welcome their work. I welcome it, because, over time as word spreads, it will deter potential cheaters in the future. It will move the needle, and that's a good thing. Will innocent people be caught in the cross hairs? Unlikely to any significant degree. If you have one anomaly but many other races that would be consistent with a particular time, then you are unlikely to face any lasting accusations. Until someone can show me an example of an innocent person being publicly shamed, I'll continue to welcome this work.

I disagree completely. The likelihood of getting caught doing wrong has been shown to be a significant deterrent, perhaps more so than the severity of any punishment. The more people hear about runners getting caught cheating, the less likely other runners will try to cheat in the future.