Both numbers are largely irrelevant to long distance - Ironman or Half-IM racing.

Specific training results in specific adaptations as a result, in your case you want to raise the pace that you can comfortably sustain for long periods of time. Nothing more, nothing less.

You meant to say relevant, right?

Irrelevant.

If he is asking these types of questions then he clearly doesn't have the level of sophistication to understand how various paces scale down to Ironman and Half-IM racing. Were he doing races where he would be training at or near his AT or VO2 then this would be directly useful, however since he (or she) isn't then there is a great deal of risk in even trying to use these numbers.

People need to get away from thinking of training in terms of percentage of VO2Max or AT and toward thinking about what specific training they can do for a specific event and how to maximuse the volume of that type of training that they can handle.

I, for one, I am very happy to no have your "level of sofistication".

AeT is the relevant factor - guess that wasn't clear from my first post.

[reply]AeT is the relevant factor - guess that wasn't clear from my first post.[/reply]
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2 Honest questions:
1) can you define AeT for me, please?
2) is AeT related (%age or otherwise) with AT/LT/FT?

Hopefully this'll clear up some of my confusion because frankly, what you're saying about not training at AT/LT/FT doesn't make much sense for most triathletes, especially 1/2 IM.

Thanks.

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Josef
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I'm not sure I understand exactly how training to increase my pace at this point (6 months away from my first race next year) would be more helpful than training to increase my physiological limits. I understand that I will need to train with the goal of increasing sustainable pace as I get closer to race time, but my question pertains to the next three months. Can you please elaborate?

1. Aerobic threshold is generally the point at whic anaerobic energy pathways start to operate and you see lactic acid levels begin to rise above resting levels to 2 mmol/litre as the primary energy source becomes glucose (rather than fatty acids).

2. AeT is often 20-40 BPM below AT.

How much time do people spend at AT or VO2 in an IM or 1/2 IM? Where are most people's limiters at long distance?

Your limiters over an IM or 1/2 IM are very unlikely to be your VO2Max or AT.

How fast is your VO2 Pace, Your AT pace, and the pace you maintained for your last IM?

You meant to say relevant, right?
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Paulo, can you elaborate? You know my philosophy regarding run training, but I am learning more and more that the principles don't *directly* transfer to cycling.

I don't doubt that V02max will be a significant enough factor to impact the cycling leg of an HIM, but where in the training does it fit in and at what level should I be before it becomes one of my priroities (ie....should I wait and see if I get a pair of quads for Christmas? ; ^ )

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

In point of fact, both "numbers" (physiological characteristics) are highly relevant to all endurance athletes, regardless of the event duration.

Your two paragraphs above contradict each other.

1. Muscle is only truly anaerobic at/above 100% of VO2max.

2. There really is no such thing as lactic acid (at least at physiological pH).

3. Muscle practically always uses a mix of substrates, and only during very long duration, relatively low intensity exercise in the fasted state are lipids likely to be the predominant fuel.

I think more information - in particular, your training history, and how your cycling data compare to your running data - is needed before the results you've provided can really be put in their proper context.

How much time do people spend at AT or VO2 in an IM or 1/2 IM? Where are most people's limiters at long distance?[/reply]
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You're already getting hammered on the science so I'll leave that part out ;-)
The question you should be asking is 'what kind of training will improve my IM the most given the resources I have?'. The answer to that question almost always will include training at intensitites at power outputs singificantly higher than AeT.

Besides, the big limiter on the cycling leg is power at lactate threshold/FT, and there is little difference between FT and max power over say, a 1/2 IM leg.

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Josef
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Barry,

I'll put my TT coaching hat on now if I may...

Paulo may have a different take, but I'd say that the main difference in terms of training approach for cycling is the removal of the impact stress/durability aspect.

Remove this factor from the training programme and an extended period of just building lots of slow volume becomes irrelevant. What is more relevant is: Can you cover the distance of the ride portion fo the race? If yes, then you want to train to boost your aerobic fitness as much as possible since this is an aerobic event. I'd say that what you want to do is build up until you're comfortable spending 25-33% of all your rides at a sub-FT tempo pace, then sit there and let the Power at sub-FT rise as you get fitter. Then, six weeks out, just as for running, you might use V02Max speedwork to force a peak.

One caveat is that I sometimes find people training for Oly/HIM who also need to use their bike as a tool for building their overall durational endurance, and for these people I have suggested building up so that they can ride at an LSD equivalent pace for the duration of their race. (these people have historically been short-distance studs with no pace control...)

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Stuff I like:
PBscience Triathlon Coaching and Lab Testing

Sorry,

This is going to degenerate into a pissing match. My point through this whole thing is that for someone to get their VO2max and AT tested, then to ask which to improve to help IM training is backward thinking. Rather one should realistically train for a half IM or full IM rather than focusing on improving numbers other than finishing time. Best way to do that - hire a coach with a history of working with long distance triathletes successfully.

Information that is relevant to an experienced and knowledgable coach is irrelevant to the average joe who generally cannot maintain easy training run paces off the bike (no offense Dr. C).

[reply][reply]
Your limiters over an IM or 1/2 IM are very unlikely to be your VO2Max or AT.

How fast is your VO2 Pace, Your AT pace, and the pace you maintained for your last IM? [/reply]
Your two paragraphs above contradict each other.[/reply]

How? I suspect that the answer will be something along the lines of
VO2 Pace - 5 minute mile
AT Pace - 6 minute mile
IM pace - 10 minute mile

[reply][reply]
Both numbers are largely irrelevant to long distance - Ironman or Half-IM racing. [/reply]
In point of fact, both "numbers" (physiological characteristics) are highly relevant to [i]all[/i] endurance athletes, regardless of the event duration.[/reply]

Relevant in the context of someone like you, yes. In the hands of someone who is coming to slowtwitch to ask, not so much.

Information that is relevant to an experienced and knowledgable coach is irrelevant to the average joe who generally cannot maintain easy training run paces off the bike (no offense Dr. C).

vs.

Both numbers are largely irrelevant to long distance - Ironman or Half-IM racing.
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See the difference here? The whole point (to me) is that these data are not 'irrelevant' - they're often misunderstood as this discussion points out.

No pissing match from my end.

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Josef
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Note that I didn't say outright that they're irrelevant - rather that they are largely irrelevant - ie. for a large fraction of the long distance racing population.

I'm more worried about Coggan, since his primary method of interaction online seems to involve attempting to crush anything that he perceives at first sight to be a contradiction of what he knows, rather than trying to first understand and then be understood.

Who knows Josef, if all goes well you might pick up a client.

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Who knows Josef, if all goes well you might pick up a client.[/reply]
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I coach almost exclusively cyclists with the occasional 'triathalete', so that'd be the first one i got from ST. (I hope you don't mean to imply that's why i post here. It's not.)

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Josef
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But Kogan wasn't asking how to improve his "numbers", he was asking how (if) he could use the information he now possesses to optimize his training. The answer to that is, unfortunately, only "maybe", but to say that he should just get on with training and forget about it fails to take full advantage of the situation. (It also demonstrates a failure to truly understand the determinants of endurance performance, but that's another story.)


No need to apologize to me when it's Kogan you've just insulted.

If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. ;-)