Try to enter really wide to avoid cross over. Most people have a poor perception of where their hands enter in backstroke

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2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

How wide? One of the guys further up in the thread suggested trying to enter like you are grabbing the lane ropes?

Also on the kick I did a lot of kicking on my back in yesterday's workout. Should the top of my foot push the water away from me (not upwards but opposite my direction of travel)? This is easy to do with fins, but I was trying to use the toes as "short fins". Is this correct? Or is the more important part pushing down and back with the sole of the foot? I think you guys are going to say "both".

Dev,

I was joking when I said to grab the line. Though getting a handful will speed you up quite a lot. For hand entry, it should be pretty much in line with your shoulders. Think reaching straight up to the side of your head, not directly over.

And yes, you will be kicking both up and down. Your quads will get a ton of work. This video shows hand position, body roll and kick that you should strive for.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOG__2eUC9E

Outside of shoulder width. Problem is you might think you are doing it but you are further inward than you feel. Have someone watch. If it's crossing over or narrow I suggest pulling what you think is extra wide and it's probably right.

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

What realAB said. Imagine you are the Village People.

probably 80-90% of the propulsion on the kick comes from the top of the foot. It can help if you let your feet go into a pigeon-toed stance. My big toes hit each other all the time.

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Usually people can either do the kick ok, or not at all.

The pull is where it gets messed up and creates a lot of drag when you bring your arms out too wide, which is super common with anyone who hasn't raced breaststroke. It's more of a circular motion, and you're still keeping high elbows until the recovery.

Good vid with slow motion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l00tfMwHvMI

Context: got my 50 breast split in 200m IM under 40. Working on getting my split in 400m IM at or under 1:20.

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

Thanks, so far, all of this has been very helpful. I was doing a continuous set today (1000m = 5x200m(50 fly-50back-100free) and tried to push the backtroke legs really hard and my legs were cooked starting the free leg. I think I am getting what you are suggesting on the wide entry. Also in that video, the catch and pull is literally like catching a ball above your head and throwing it towards your feet

How strong is your kick though??? If you're not kicking somewhere close to as fast as you swim, there's no point on kicking too hard since you are just diverting energy that could used to pull harder, which will result in faster times if your pull is consid stronger and faster than your kick. I swim a fair amount of backstroke and I feel that using paddles really helps me feel the proper way to grab the water. I've worked tons on my backstroke kick over the past 5 yrs but it still basically sucks, so I just kick enough to keep my feet close to the water surface and try to pull as hard and fast as possible.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Temporary hijack...where do you think of hands entering in freestyle?

hmmm 11:30 and 12:30 but if you have trouble with your hands crossing the midline of your body, think about it as 11 and 1 --- if you think about overcorrecting they're likely to land in the right spot.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

My kick is not bad for back. I have not timed how long a 25 takes me kicking on my back hands above head streamlined. I'll check that out and let you know.

During today's 90 min swim I did a bunch of 200's modified IM (50,50,25,75). I am just working back into breast stroke as my collar bone was bugging me during breast and so far so good. No collar bone pain. I found that for my backstroke as soon as I entered the water pinky finger first, if I pushed the water out and away from me (like a reverse skulling motion from free or breast), I really caught more water, and my backstroke stroke rate actually improved. I felt less of a dead spot in my stroke that I had to kick through and my legs were less fried after the backstroke leg. Am I doing this correctly?

This is one of those things I think I would have to see. I don't feel that I'm pushing water out and away from me when I start my backstroke pull but I might be just a tiny bit. I feel that I'm pushing water backward almost immediately after my hand enters the water. I'm a big "swim by feel" kind of swimmer and I have a hard time describing all the motions in words. When swimming backstroke, in mid-pull my hand feels like it has a dinner plate on it, even w/o the paddles, but the paddles helped me to get to the point of feeling the dinner plate w/o the paddles.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

During today's 90 min swim I did a bunch of 200's modified IM (50,50,25,75). I am just working back into breast stroke as my collar bone was bugging me during breast and so far so good. No collar bone pain. I found that for my backstroke as soon as I entered the water pinky finger first, if I pushed the water out and away from me (like a reverse skulling motion from free or breast), I really caught more water, and my backstroke stroke rate actually improved. I felt less of a dead spot in my stroke that I had to kick through and my legs were less fried after the backstroke leg. Am I doing this correctly?

OK, I focused on my backstroke hand entry yesterday; my hand enters pinky first, then immediately my hand rotates and starts to catch the water to pull back behind me. Not a lot of leverage at the beginning but the hand accelerates as it goes through the pull. I couldn't feel any pushing of the water out and away from the body. Using paddles enhances the feeling of catching and pulling the water.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

+1 to this. I like swimming breast w/ an elastic ankle strap just above my knees.

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"America is all about speed. Hot, nasty, badass speed." -Eleanor Roosevelt, 1936

Can you guys provide an image or video of this. With your knees together, how far apart do your feet go. In the extreme case you just end up with a modified dolphin kick? What else am I missing?

Try breaststroke kick with a pull buoy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD4Y-sjKlew

Another tip: wait as long as you can before bringing your heels up. Hips and knees descend first, then as quick as you can bring your heels up and around. There is a great sequence of kicks starting at :40 in the video to illustrate that point.

Your observation about the kick being almost like dolphin kick is a good one. Try alternating one stroke with breaststroke kick with one stroke using a dolphin kick. You'll know you have the timing right when it no longer feels awkward to switch from one kick to the other.

Was going to suggest same. That's what the kids in our club do :)

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

I actually do a drill connecting one stroke of breast stroke with one stroke of fly for timing purposes, but I think what I will do is do dolphin kick on the breast and breast kick on the fly, then I THINK I'll have gotten the timing right on the breast? Correct?

What do you think about this video with fins. Looks like kicking the water back with the flat part of the fins and then whipping the sole of the feet together.

Dev

I do breaststroke arms the whole time, alternating dolphin/breast kicks. Your drill would probably work, too.

Nope, too hard to engage the inside edge and underside of the fins with proper breaststroke kick. Unless you have special breaststroke fins.

Backstroke-
Kick - one has the tendency to do a weak upside down two beat freestyle kick on your back.
Wrong ..... force is applied differently.
To avoid this, practice backstroke kick. Use fins, no kickboard, arms in locked streamline position. Push off with the underwater butterfly kick. Try to hall ass. Focus on generating force in both directions with the kick.

Breaststroke kick-
This should also be practiced.
Without practice ones explosive power in closing legs is basically nil.
One should focus on whipping the legs together.

don't be scared to take fewer strokes in breast stroke. Its all about the glide.

I was an OK HS swimmer who could win individual races in Free, Fly and Back, but my breaststroke was so awful that I rarely won an IM event. I've searched for ways to improve in the 40 years since, without any significant progress, but I do feel your pain!

One tip I do have on Breaststroke is that because you spend so much time face down in the water, you can gauge your speed very well by watching the tiles pass by on the pool bottom. This allows you to work on the timing of your kick and pull with very direct feedback. In my case, I've added a few beats of pause after the kick because that is the fastest I'm going thoughout the stroke cycle.

Good luck!

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(opening lines from Tim Krabbe's The Rider , 1978