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Re: Yes, another "How-To" Swim Thread [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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You being stronger than a 12 year old girl, in absolute power terms, has nothing to do with whether or not they are trying to imporove their own power. You might generate 200 units of power to go the same speed as they do with 100 units of power, because they are more efficient and have half the frontal area to displace. But they are still working hard to get to 110 units of power, when they'll kick your ass by even more.

It's the exact same concept that an 18 wheeler needs a bigger engine to drive at 100 kph than a Honda civic does to go 130 kph.

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Re: Yes, another "How-To" Swim Thread [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
I'm more efficient at applying what power I have, so if you were to measure my power in the water, it would be higher. If you put us on a vasa, where technique doesn't really matter, they'd beat the pants off me.


I suspect if you and the tri guys got on a Vasa with a power meter, you would register at least twice their power. Also, regarding the push-ups, they use your arms/upper body in a diff manner than swimming. However, i suspect that with say 4 weeks of doing push-ups 3 or 4 days a week, you would very quickly go from 16 to doing around 80 in 2 min. You've got the upper body power but just need to develop the push-up-specific muscle firing. Same goes for pull-ups: i read a brief USA Swimming report about 3 or 4 yrs ago about a top female swimmer, can't recall her name but she was going 1:55 for 200 lcm, but yet she could only do like 2 pull-ups. So, they got her doing pull-ups 3 or 4 days per week and sure enough within 4 weeks she's doing 15 pull-ups. Of course, her 200 time stayed the same, no change whatsoever; she just got better at doing pull-ups.


To put it a bit in perspective as well - there's a Vasa promo video that I linked to last year that featured the US Open Water swim champion who is sponsored by vasa.

They only showed a split second shot of the powermeter when he was on it, but it registered like 185 watts.

For perspective, even if I pull all-out for 5 seconds, the highest I can get on the Vasa is like 125 watts over 5 seconds. And that's for 5 seconds. I'll bet that US champion was doing that for longer intervals - at least that's what the video looked like with him on the machine, not a 5 second all out anaerobic sprint.

Some people can barely put up that much power (185w) on a bike with their legs and their bodyweight!

Ya, i've watched that video several times; IIRC, it is called "A Day in the Life of Alex Meyer". I remember seeing the Vasa trainer screen but, having never used one, i had no context for the numbers but he was talking when that was filmed so he couldn't have been going too hard. He can prob hold 200 watts for the 25K swim, e.g. around 5 hours, which is the race where he won the world championship in 2010.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Yes, another "How-To" Swim Thread [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
As the guy who came up with that phrase, you are spot on. It is a shorthand sound bite which reinforces that both are really important, it isn't an either / or.

Good to know that you came up with the phrase, love it! Will have to attribute it to you in the future. Have the royalty checks started coming in yet? ;-)
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Re: Yes, another "How-To" Swim Thread [tttiltheend] [ In reply to ]
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Have the royalty checks started coming in yet? ;-)

A few more and I'll be able to quit my job ;)

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Re: Yes, another "How-To" Swim Thread [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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I have been out of the pool pretty much since August of last summer due to work travel. 1-2 swims every 2 weeks just to enjoy the outdoors a bit, no clock just flopping and stretching it out.

The last 2 weeks have allowed me to get back in the pool about 10 times. The feel I have gained the past 2 weeks has shored up nearly all of an ~:08/100 gap I had on day 1 compared to where I left off last summer for threshold swims. I was slipping on perfectly still water so badly I wanted to puke the first day back felt like a plow. 2,200 is my longest swim the last 2 weeks. Now that is where my fitness will come in to play as I stretch the workouts back out to 4k or so. That's gonna take time...seeing how long I can keep that speed out to 4k will be an interesting trend.

An all out sprint would prove even more horrific as my slippage would be atrocious at max effort.
Last edited by: tigerpaws: Mar 31, 15 10:29
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Re: Yes, another "How-To" Swim Thread [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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tigerpaws wrote:
I have been out of the pool pretty much since August of last summer due to work travel. 1-2 swims every 2 weeks just to enjoy the outdoors a bit, no clock just flopping and stretching it out.
The last 2 weeks have allowed me to get back in the pool about 10 times. The feel I have gained the past 2 weeks has shored up nearly all of an ~:08/100 gap I had on day 1 compared to where I left off last summer for threshold swims. I was slipping on perfectly still water so badly I wanted to puke the first day back felt like a plow. 2,200 is my longest swim the last 2 weeks. Now that is where my fitness will come in to play as I stretch the workouts back out to 4k or so. That's gonna take time...seeing how long I can keep that speed out to 4k will be an interesting trend.
An all out sprint would prove even more horrific as my slippage would be atrocious at max effort.

Very nice, sounds like you're making great progress. You'll be swimming really well in another 2 or 3 weeks!!!


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Yes, another "How-To" Swim Thread [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
tigerpaws wrote:
I have been out of the pool pretty much since August of last summer due to work travel. 1-2 swims every 2 weeks just to enjoy the outdoors a bit, no clock just flopping and stretching it out.
The last 2 weeks have allowed me to get back in the pool about 10 times. The feel I have gained the past 2 weeks has shored up nearly all of an ~:08/100 gap I had on day 1 compared to where I left off last summer for threshold swims. I was slipping on perfectly still water so badly I wanted to puke the first day back felt like a plow. 2,200 is my longest swim the last 2 weeks. Now that is where my fitness will come in to play as I stretch the workouts back out to 4k or so. That's gonna take time...seeing how long I can keep that speed out to 4k will be an interesting trend.
An all out sprint would prove even more horrific as my slippage would be atrocious at max effort.


Very nice, sounds like you're making great progress. You'll be swimming really well in another 2 or 3 weeks!!!


I just feel it was mostly skill reacquisition and little to no fitness. I just don't correlate well with the arm strength and Watts conversation etc. i'm embarrassed to have my shirt off right now I've basically been a sedentary piece of crap for the last eight months and I look like a dehydrated Andy Schleck. I mean how much strength does it take to make a nicely curved shape for a catch and hold the water? After that just use your core to leverage the body over that point and repeat. I think there is a huge difference in the stroke of catching and holding water versus yanking the arms through the water. I swam that way for years and it was like pushing a sled of cinder blocks up a mud hill.
Last edited by: tigerpaws: Mar 31, 15 12:30
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Re: Yes, another "How-To" Swim Thread [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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tigerpaws wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
tigerpaws wrote:
I have been out of the pool pretty much since August of last summer due to work travel. 1-2 swims every 2 weeks just to enjoy the outdoors a bit, no clock just flopping and stretching it out.
The last 2 weeks have allowed me to get back in the pool about 10 times. The feel I have gained the past 2 weeks has shored up nearly all of an ~:08/100 gap I had on day 1 compared to where I left off last summer for threshold swims. I was slipping on perfectly still water so badly I wanted to puke the first day back felt like a plow. 2,200 is my longest swim the last 2 weeks. Now that is where my fitness will come in to play as I stretch the workouts back out to 4k or so. That's gonna take time...seeing how long I can keep that speed out to 4k will be an interesting trend.
An all out sprint would prove even more horrific as my slippage would be atrocious at max effort.


Very nice, sounds like you're making great progress. You'll be swimming really well in another 2 or 3 weeks!!!


I just feel it was mostly skill reacquisition and little to no fitness. I just don't correlate well with the arm strength and Watts conversation etc. i'm embarrassed to have my shirt off right now I've basically been a sedentary piece of crap for the last eight months and I look like a dehydrated Andy Schleck. I mean how much strength does it take to make a nicely curved shape for a catch and hold the water? After that just use your core to leverage the body over that point and repeat. I think there is a huge difference in the stroke of catching and holding water versus yanking the arms through the water. I swam that way for years and it was like pushing a sled of cinder blocks up a mud hill.

I think you are way underestimating the strength/power required to swim fast. You've prob heard this before but there have been research studies that demonstrated a very high correlation between a single arm pull on a spring-loaded "fish scale" and time for a 50 sprint. Of course, for dist swims less raw power is needed but still you're not going to hold 30 per 50 yd for a 1650 unless you can at least do a single 50 from a push in 25-ish:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Yes, another "How-To" Swim Thread [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
tigerpaws wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
tigerpaws wrote:
I have been out of the pool pretty much since August of last summer due to work travel. 1-2 swims every 2 weeks just to enjoy the outdoors a bit, no clock just flopping and stretching it out.
The last 2 weeks have allowed me to get back in the pool about 10 times. The feel I have gained the past 2 weeks has shored up nearly all of an ~:08/100 gap I had on day 1 compared to where I left off last summer for threshold swims. I was slipping on perfectly still water so badly I wanted to puke the first day back felt like a plow. 2,200 is my longest swim the last 2 weeks. Now that is where my fitness will come in to play as I stretch the workouts back out to 4k or so. That's gonna take time...seeing how long I can keep that speed out to 4k will be an interesting trend.
An all out sprint would prove even more horrific as my slippage would be atrocious at max effort.


Very nice, sounds like you're making great progress. You'll be swimming really well in another 2 or 3 weeks!!!


I just feel it was mostly skill reacquisition and little to no fitness. I just don't correlate well with the arm strength and Watts conversation etc. i'm embarrassed to have my shirt off right now I've basically been a sedentary piece of crap for the last eight months and I look like a dehydrated Andy Schleck. I mean how much strength does it take to make a nicely curved shape for a catch and hold the water? After that just use your core to leverage the body over that point and repeat. I think there is a huge difference in the stroke of catching and holding water versus yanking the arms through the water. I swam that way for years and it was like pushing a sled of cinder blocks up a mud hill.


I think you are way underestimating the strength/power required to swim fast. You've prob heard this before but there have been research studies that demonstrated a very high correlation between a single arm pull on a spring-loaded "fish scale" and time for a 50 sprint. Of course, for dist swims less raw power is needed but still you're not going to hold 30 per 50 yd for a 1650 unless you can at least do a single 50 from a push in 25-ish:)


For what us mortals do around here sans a few? I simply don't think it requires a lot of strength and power to swim well. I was certainly not referring to the crowd who clips off 60 second 100's for a scy mile that's for sure. My body has gone to crap the past year and I have gained back most of what I lost after 2 weeks consistently back in the water. But alas that's why I brought up why my all out sprint would be atrocious. I have lost the strength to keep my grip on the water at that kind of effort level.

Maybe I underestimate the dry land of the past few years and it's lasting effect? I just know the last 8 months have been entertaining dinners/wine/beer/airports/hotels. Ugh. Feel like shite!
Last edited by: tigerpaws: Mar 31, 15 13:04
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Re: Yes, another "How-To" Swim Thread [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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Just go to your local YMCA with 2:00+/100yd and slower swimmers, and just watch their turnover rate.

Even not even accounting for good pull dynamics, they will have pitifully slow spm (used to be me.) Same with the folks going 1:50/100. That's not a technique issue, that's a fitness issue - they simply don't have the muscular endurance to pull remotely close to what a decently fast swimmer would pull. Ask them to pull faster, and they'll go a little faster and turnover a little faster, but not by much. And make them go for distance, and their stroke rate will drop even more from their already slow rate.

Note that I'm also not saying you must have high turnover to swim fast - once you get strong muscular endurance, you will be able to pull much harder per stroke, and look smooth while going fast. But the limiter for those who have not gotten this endurance is very, very obvious just for starters, in their pitifully slow stroke rate.

I'll also add that now I acquired the ability to swim up to 1:18-1:22 for fast paces at my peak, it's MUCH easier to hold fitness to maintain 1:25-1:30/100 paces. Like 2 hard swims of 2000yds per week do it. In contrast, it took me over 20k per week of Vasa+swimming for 2-3 months to drop 10sec from 1:35 to 1:25 pace. I think that's what you're experiencing - it's easy for an ex-fish to say it takes them no fitness to swim fast, but all the hard work was already done in the past - getting the body to 'remember' it is much, much faster.


If I saw a lot of 2:00/100 swimmers thrashing for 1000yds at 80+spm, I'd say ok, it's ALL about the technique for them. In reality though, I don't think I've even seen one that can hold 60spm for even 50 yds at that pace.
Last edited by: lightheir: Mar 31, 15 13:13
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Re: Yes, another "How-To" Swim Thread [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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I've still been concentrating on my pull, but little improvement.

I did a 1800 yard OWS (with wetsuit) yesterday before Master's class, averaged 1:51/100yd (I could be faster, but sighting technique is poor). I could probably cut off 10-15 seconds if I could get my sighting correct (just guessing). I have more of a stop/restart technique, it's ugly. I'll be getting help with this over the next few weeks.

I then went and swam 2000 yards in class, with the exception of my first 100 (1:45/100yd), the rest of my splits, whether 100/200/300/400 all were 1:51/100yd. I think I'll just have to suck it up for a while and have to accept that I will have to be happy with anything 1:4x/100yd.
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Re: Yes, another "How-To" Swim Thread [B3CK] [ In reply to ]
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I'll just guess that your strokes per minute is particularly high?
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Re: Yes, another "How-To" Swim Thread [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
Just go to your local YMCA with 2:00+/100yd and slower swimmers, and just watch their turnover rate.

Even not even accounting for good pull dynamics, they will have pitifully slow spm (used to be me.) Same with the folks going 1:50/100. That's not a technique issue, that's a fitness issue - they simply don't have the muscular endurance to pull remotely close to what a decently fast swimmer would pull. Ask them to pull faster, and they'll go a little faster and turnover a little faster, but not by much. And make them go for distance, and their stroke rate will drop even more from their already slow rate.

Note that I'm also not saying you must have high turnover to swim fast - once you get strong muscular endurance, you will be able to pull much harder per stroke, and look smooth while going fast. But the limiter for those who have not gotten this endurance is very, very obvious just for starters, in their pitifully slow stroke rate.

I'll also add that now I acquired the ability to swim up to 1:18-1:22 for fast paces at my peak, it's MUCH easier to hold fitness to maintain 1:25-1:30/100 paces. Like 2 hard swims of 2000yds per week do it. In contrast, it took me over 20k per week of Vasa+swimming for 2-3 months to drop 10sec from 1:35 to 1:25 pace. I think that's what you're experiencing - it's easy for an ex-fish to say it takes them no fitness to swim fast, but all the hard work was already done in the past - getting the body to 'remember' it is much, much faster.


If I saw a lot of 2:00/100 swimmers thrashing for 1000yds at 80+spm, I'd say ok, it's ALL about the technique for them. In reality though, I don't think I've even seen one that can hold 60spm for even 50 yds at that pace.
Gosh anyone would think you've been watching me swim!! You've described me to a tee.

My SPM was too slow and my pull not hard/strong enough. Still isn't actually. This thread recommended the tube drills and Swim Speed Secrets.

Yesterday I bought a tube set and did my first session with them. Am going to be doing 3 x 15mins a week and see how I go, that along with the Finis tempo trainer will hopefully get me from around 1:50/2:00 to 1:45ish and then the aim is for this time next year to be at 1:30/100m. My coach thinks that's a hard ask but we'lol just have to see.

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Re: Yes, another "How-To" Swim Thread [BayDad] [ In reply to ]
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If it's at all helpful, I was stuck exactly where you are, around 1:45 pace for 1000TT, for nearly 2 years, swimming 3-4x/wk about 45mins each time.

It unfortunately took me a lot of dedicated work to break through, but it definitely works. I actually bought a Vasa trainer over a year and a half ago and did a 4 month swim focus block followed by 3 months of swim-run (no bike) with at least 5 hrs/wk of swim/Vasa. Took about 2 months to beat myself down, but after 2 months of some small gains, I started crushing my swim PRs. I actually did most of my training on the Vasa, which is a whole different story (do a search - I've written extensively on it), but proved to me that this mystical/magical 'swim feel' and 'water-specific technique' was probably overhyped for MOP/BOP swimmers trying to improve a lot. (I cut back pool time to 1-2x/swim ,but used the Vasa a LOT so overall training volume was over 2x my prior, sometimes 3x.)

And as said, those gains tend to come back fast once you've earned them the hard way. I did minimal swimming for about 2 months over Dec-Jan to get my bike back in order, but while my first 'real' swim workouts were pretty ugly, I was back to only about 5sec off peak speed within 2 weeks, and the endurance to hold it came quickly afterwards. Compare to the 20k/wk I had to do to earn this ability in the first place.

I'd see if you can swim as hard and as much volume as possible in a dedicated swim block. You really can lop off 15+, 20+sec/100 with the training - I'm almost certainly below average in terms of swim genetics since I swam only 2:10/100 in my first two years of swimming, and that's with pretty serious dedication and study of the sport, so I suspect if i can do it, you can too.
Last edited by: lightheir: Mar 31, 15 15:06
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Re: Yes, another "How-To" Swim Thread [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Enjoy reading your swim and Vasa comments. You must have had faith in the Vasa to spend the money AND spend the time you did on the Vasa. Maybe spending the money made it easier to commit to the machine.

The Vasa probably provides feedback so a person knows that their watts or spm are dropping instantaneously. While lap swimming we tend to know that later at the wall or the end of an interval.

Another problem with swimming is that the pull can so gradually "slip" in the water so the spm are OK yet you don't go faster in the water. I don't know if the Vasa let's a person get away with slippages or the arms moving in a way that reduce the effectiveness of the pull.

A personal problem that I have with swimming is the cold water and I can only take so much whereas that would not be a problem with the Vasa.

And even with the Vasa, you spent a lot of time, made little gains and then had the breakthrough, which is what most of us are hoping happens to us in the pool, sooner rather than later. Perhaps the Vasa could make an average MOP or BOP significantly better if they put in the time like you did because it might not let us get away with under performing on the machine.

Prior to having one, if you didn't have a constraint on your pool time, would you have gotten a Vasa?

Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.
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Re: Yes, another "How-To" Swim Thread [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think I've ever calculated SPM. We've logged SP 25 Yards, I was always around 19-21.
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Re: Yes, another "How-To" Swim Thread [IT] [ In reply to ]
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Honestly, the Vasa was a big desperation gamble for me. I had no idea it would work, and only pulled the trigger because the YMCA pool swimming here is literally so bad that it's impossible to get a real workout on most summer days since it's so crowded with poor swimmers in the fast lane. I would have been happy if it worked half as well as it has for me.

The Vasa works pretty simply. The wattage is nice, but the real reason it worked for me was simply because I cranked up the volume, and then intensity on it. I don't feel it offers any real advantage over pool swimming other than convenience, but that's a HUGE one in swimming. If you aren't willing to crank up the volume on the Vasa, it's not going to make magic.

I actually have come to NOT buy the concept of the slipping arm for BOP/MOP swimmers in the water as well. I'm finding that as you get more muscular endurance, you will naturally pull harder with and go faster.

If someone was really limited by slipping arm technique, and not fitness, they should be able to windmill at 60+, if not 80+ strokes per minute for a 1000TT. Yet I've never seen any 1:50/100 swimmer come close to maintaining 60spm even with terrible form, for more than 50 yds. Slow BOP swimmers aren't slow because they're strong and but can't grab water - they are slow because they are WEAK in the swim motion muscles and cannot even generate enough power to even get a decent early vertical forearm catch for more than a few strokes. The slipping water look of their stroke isn't the cause of their slowness - it's their lack of muscular endurance and power which forces them to use such a stroke, since they are took weak to have a better stroke.

Also, if they were really 1:30/100 fitness level, and swimming 1:55 pace solely due to a massively slipping arm in the water, they should rocket to 1:30 pace or close to it if you put big paddles on them, since the paddles should catch a ton of water, allowing them to utilize all their 'wasted' power. I think you know already that no 1:55/100 swimmer becomes a 1:30 swimmer by just putting paddles on them. It's not a wasted power issue - it's a lack of power in the first place issue.
Last edited by: lightheir: Mar 31, 15 16:17
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Re: Yes, another "How-To" Swim Thread [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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I'm verbose but I can't help chiming in again about how excellent I think the Vasa is. It's for sure my #1 secret triathlon weapon. It singlehandledly solves the problem of swim travel time costs and pool access, which is perhaps the biggest limiter for most adult-onset MOPers like myself.

It's so good that even if you offered me a full endless pool, fully paid for, right now, I wouldn't take it. (Ok, I would if I could sell it immediately and grab the cash, but I wouldn't even install it.) The Vasa is maintenance-free. No chemicals, no pumps, no energy costs. Just get on and go. In your freaking underwear if you want. There is no water-based system that is so low maintenance - not even close.

I'm still amazed by how many MOPers who profess being lousy swimmers, are willing to spend $2k on race wheels but won't even consider $2k for a Vasa trainer, even when they say the main reason they aren't swimming well is because it's too much time to travel to the pool, or pool access is too limited.
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Re: Yes, another "How-To" Swim Thread [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Wouldn't it be sufficient to say that not only are technique and power both important, but they are important cohesively? I'm just getting to around 1:55/100 in my second month of adult on-set swimming after starting somewhere in the 2:15-2:30 range. I've studied a ton of technique. Read the books. Watched the videos. I try my hardest to focus on the proper technique and over time have become stronger and been able to hold technique longer. That said, to consistently pull with EVF, I need to drastically increase the strength of the muscles and the functional strength of that position. Its a real struggle for me to keep that elbow up and high at the beginning of the catch out in front. Not only that, but the shoulder flexibility required to be able to life and hold your arm at that angle. Funny enough, I assume the faster you are the less extreme that angle, or the less time you spend at an extreme angle because you are moving forward into the pull phase faster. That said, I'd imagine you can do a billion lat pull downs and shoulder presses and I would imagine that you will not see the same increases as doing a functional exercise like the tube work.
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Re: Yes, another "How-To" Swim Thread [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Most 2:00 swimmers don't have the technique to use paddles effectively. They'll slow the swimmer down almost as much as they speed them up. Paddles don't fix poor body position, excessive fish tailing, scissor kicking, overrotation, or any of the other bazillion issues that a weaker swimmer typically has.

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Re: Yes, another "How-To" Swim Thread [cmd111183] [ In reply to ]
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cmd111183 wrote:
Wouldn't it be sufficient to say that not only are technique and power both important, but they are important cohesively? I'm just getting to around 1:55/100 in my second month of adult on-set swimming after starting somewhere in the 2:15-2:30 range. I've studied a ton of technique. Read the books. Watched the videos. I try my hardest to focus on the proper technique and over time have become stronger and been able to hold technique longer. That said, to consistently pull with EVF, I need to drastically increase the strength of the muscles and the functional strength of that position. Its a real struggle for me to keep that elbow up and high at the beginning of the catch out in front. Not only that, but the shoulder flexibility required to be able to life and hold your arm at that angle. Funny enough, I assume the faster you are the less extreme that angle, or the less time you spend at an extreme angle because you are moving forward into the pull phase faster. That said, I'd imagine you can do a billion lat pull downs and shoulder presses and I would imagine that you will not see the same increases as doing a functional exercise like the tube work.

I still defer to the other swim gurus here; the insights I've made have been key for my own swimming, but I'm willing to admit that it may be different for others (I don't actually think it is.)

Have said it before, but for MOP swimmers in the range we're talking about (1:45-1:55 range) who are hoping to make a big jump to 1:25 and below (not just a small jump to 1:40-1:50 pace), it's going to be hugely power. At least that what it was for me. The technical improvements were miniscule in comparison for me.

I didn't take on this contrarian perspective willingly. I spent 3 years before that listening to all the fish and high level coaches here and elsewhere that slow swimmers are slow because of their terrible technique, not because of power. I think that's true for raw beginners, but once you're pretty flat in the water and not hugely over-rotating, you're not going to get that big 20sec/100 jump by just body position adjustments and a better EVF without huge jumps in swim fitness/muscular endurance.

I would normally buy all-in to the very reasonable sounding "it's not just power, it's technique+power that gets you faster, and you built both simultaneously", but I believe that my big gains on the Vasa are showing me that at least for me, power trumps all for my level of swimming. I certainly didn't make any big technique gains (or any technique gains) while doing all those hours on a Vasa trainer, and I spent only half the amount of pool time in the water than I did in previous years. Even without any technical gains whatsoever, I crushed my old self - and absolutely crushed any small gains I'd ever made by small technique changes in the prior few years.

I think a lot of coaches and high level swimmers would come over to my side of the power vs technique equation for MOP swimmers if they too either did what I did (lots of Vasa, little water) or trained athletes using this unconventional approach. The reality however, is that most of these very same coaches/swimmers have no clue as to the power contribution to swimming, and only base their claims of power off of anecdotal experience, not actual power numbers, nor have they trained MOP swimmers with a method that almost entirely removes technique from the equation and still watch them improve like I did.

Now that I've done what I've done for signifiacnt swim improvement, I actually think that one of the biggest disservices and worst advice that slower MOP swimmers around 1:50 pace get, is that they should give equal priority to technique vs power with their limited swim volume and swim time. And then these same swimmers (like my old self) wonder why they don't get any faster despite lots of money spent on video, coaching, books, etc. After all, if technique is so helpful, shouldn't they get at least a few sec/100 with all that work?

Make those same swimers crank out 20k/wk, and they'll fly.
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Re: Yes, another "How-To" Swim Thread [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
Most 2:00 swimmers don't have the technique to use paddles effectively. They'll slow the swimmer down almost as much as they speed them up. Paddles don't fix poor body position, excessive fish tailing, scissor kicking, overrotation, or any of the other bazillion issues that a weaker swimmer typically has.
i wonder if I'm the exception that proves the rule. I swam 2:07/100m in the Auckland Standard distance race at the weekend.

Put paddles and pull buoy on me and I can swim 1:42/100. Not for an extended period of time, but I can do it.

For me it's definately a combination of strength and muscular endurance. My technique is ok but I don't have the endurance to keep it up. For instance my peak 10min pace on Sunday was 1:46/100m so as I got more tired I slowed right down.

Am hoping the tube workouts and getting in the pool 3x a week will do the trick.

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Re: Yes, another "How-To" Swim Thread [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
Most 2:00 swimmers don't have the technique to use paddles effectively. They'll slow the swimmer down almost as much as they speed them up. Paddles don't fix poor body position, excessive fish tailing, scissor kicking, overrotation, or any of the other bazillion issues that a weaker swimmer typically has.

I'd agree with that. But remember, I'm talking about MOP swimmers here, not raw beginners.

Pretty much every swimmer I've met who can do 1:45-1:55 pace for 100 isn't so bad that they do all of those things worse with paddles that you mention - I certainly didn't.

And even more importantly, let's assume that such 1:45 paced swimmer has NO major errors in fish tailing, scissor kicking, overrotation, and that their lack of speed is purely a 'slipping the hand in the water' situation, meaning they can't take advantage of their power. I seriously doubt that such swimmer would suddenly be a 1:30 or faster swimmer with paddles, even assuming a very efficient paddle pull. They'd likely be exactly the same speed. Maybe at best 3-5sec/100 faster.

I haven't heard from any swimmers actually who suddenly get +10sec/100 by using paddles, at any level.
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Re: Yes, another "How-To" Swim Thread [BayDad] [ In reply to ]
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BayDad wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
Most 2:00 swimmers don't have the technique to use paddles effectively. They'll slow the swimmer down almost as much as they speed them up. Paddles don't fix poor body position, excessive fish tailing, scissor kicking, overrotation, or any of the other bazillion issues that a weaker swimmer typically has.
i wonder if I'm the exception that proves the rule. I swam 2:07/100m in the Auckland Standard distance race at the weekend.

Put paddles and pull buoy on me and I can swim 1:42/100. Not for an extended period of time, but I can do it.

For me it's definately a combination of strength and muscular endurance. My technique is ok but I don't have the endurance to keep it up. For instance my peak 10min pace on Sunday was 1:46/100m so as I got more tired I slowed right down.

Am hoping the tube workouts and getting in the pool 3x a week will do the trick.

You may be the exception!

I would just add to make sure -

If the race was OWS, that's not a fair comparison, between the sighting, navigation, etc. It should be a pool swim to compare to a pull swim.

But also FWIW, lots of swim volume, whether it be Vasa or pool, is often the key to preventing that late stage slowdown, just like it works for running and cycling, especially the longer the distance gets. (For getting faster top speed, that works somewhat less well - you have to push the pace to push your top end, but the volume works well for preventing speed breakdowns at the tail end of a race.)
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Re: Yes, another "How-To" Swim Thread [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks - my coach and I intend on upping the volume. I'm doing IM70.3 Taupo in December so need to!!

This was my first Olympic Distance race as ice been doing sprints up til now, so most of my pool swims have been up to 2,000m. I can't see that staying the same for much longer!!

I train with some fishes which is hard when I'm in the next lane going so much slower than them :(

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GT - Sensor Carbon Expert

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