I find the opposite is true near me in running races. The local 5k/10k/half marathon that has a few hundred entrants and costs very little to enter are the ones they have the fastest runners in them.

In the bigger events there are the guys brought in who can win them but no sub elite runners. The 'big' half marathon in my town has almost no one running between 1:15 and 1:25, whereas there are plenty who are capable but not paying the 60€ entry fees.

I think the same would be true for long distance triathlons too, except that the FOP want to KQ. The same won't be true for Olympics and Sprints though imo.

We have decent team presence here in the south that push do to x amount of local races a year and compete with points. One way to help with local races. Through this they are able to do some races series where you pay $150 for 3 pool swim sprint tris. I hate pool swims but I will support local businesses and use them as speed workouts. Rarely down here do we have an olympic over $120 with most being under $90.

You cannot consider Alcatraz an "olympic" since it is an iconic niche race, they will charge what they can get and seeing as there is a huge waiting list every year I would keep my prices up if I were them.

I think both M dot and the local races have their place, like you said.

We have a lot of local races here in the Rochester/Buffalo area, maybe because our race season is so short. Most have a series based competition that really makes the races fun. You sign up for a bunch and race familiar faces for podium spots every couple of weeks.

IM is sort of like the luxury vacation. You don't have to take one in order to travel. However, like you pointed out, our local races won't just hang out and wait for our business with a handful of participants each year. We need to keep them alive, connect with the local tri scene, and enjoy a little variety in iur racing.

So....do that M dot. But don't turn your back on the local stuff. Even if you don't want to race, then show up, volunteer, get involved.

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Chris Harris

You have hit all of the proverbial nails on the head. I couldn't agree more with everything you said. Especially your point that athletes have control of the future of local grass roots racing.

The phenomena we are seeing is athletes choosing to train on the weekend rather than using a local race to both train and gain valuable race experience. There are more athletes who are reluctant to give up the big block of weekend training (Sat. long bike/Sun. long run OR Brick weekend) rather than incorporate a local race in their training to gain race experience. I have discussed this with most of the local coaches and they agree that they get pushback from athletes when they suggest the athlete race, rather than do that long run or bike. An extension of this is something you touched on. Not only do we see more athletes training rather than race but there seem to be more who never race locally, or at best very infrequently, and go straight to the big brand races. As you said "if your first race is a 70.3 or 140.6 you're missing out on a lot of great racing and training opportunities".

This year, In an attempt to attract some of those athletes, we gave athletes an option to compete in "supported training days" this year. We removed some of the benefits (no timing, no t-shirt, no post race food) and reduced the entry fees accordingly. The athletes then raced/trained in a wave with all of the other athletes in their age group and all of the typical support of a race i.e. aid stations, marked course etc. I had hoped that a fee reduction and the opportunity to "train" while racing might be attractive. So far it looks like I am completely wrong. That might be in part to us not doing a good enough job promoting that option. We shall see if that changes in 2016.

The other concern in Ontario (the largest triathlon market in Canada) is a reduction in participation at the entry level to the support. The races we call Give-It-A-Tri and others refer to as Try A Tri. While our overall participation in 2015 is the same as 2014 and 2013, the number of participants at that distance has decreased. In the long run that is concerning as it suggests there are less new people entering the sport. We are also seeing that 75% of athletes only race once a year. That raises the question, If someone races once a year, are they invested in the sport as a triathlete? Not sure if you are interested but I recently discussed this with Bob Babbitt http://www.babbittville.com/...lle-radio/john-salt/

We have helped to promote other local independent races, worked with coaches and Tri clubs to promote growth but the battle is getting harder. I would love to discuss this with you and see where the parallels are and what is working for you. I will send you a PM.

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John Salt, Founder - MultiSport Canada
Canada's Largest Triathlon Series and Barrelman Niagara Falls
http://www.multisportcanada.com / http://www.niagarafallstriathlon.com
"Discipline Is What You Do When No One Is Watching You"

My usual cutoff point is $60 for a race. So I tend to race Sprints, maybe an Oly, some Dus and runnign events. I like to race and race a lot. So if the cost is over $100 per event, I can't do many. I can certainly understand paying a little extra occasionally for a experience event and paid something like $100 to race the Iceland Half marathon (well I was going to race the full but got injured) but I won't be going back year after year.

I have a certain amount of money and loads of things to do in life. If the cost of racing gets too high, i will do fewer races overall and then when the price get absurd, I will take up trail running and hiking. I'll still be spending money on items, but not events.

I suspect the number of 1 offs will decrease in traditional tris though as the "fun" style races pop up more and more. Spartan, Mud runs, Zombie runs, colour runs, bubble runs. These sell out fast now as they offer a fun experience and a chance for small groups and communities to get together. The days of 1 off Ironmen style endurance events can't last forever. I see my running group and they all love to attend events as a team and go out afterwards. They are happy to live through the small few of us that take on the bigger endurance sports.

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Ian

......and the mud run phenomenon has siphoned off a lot of "doing it for fun and Facebook pictures" group....

locally we have 72 multi sport events in the state of Minnesota.....and I was seeing many mountain/hybrid bikes in the transition area 3 and 4 years ago...it seems that group has moved away from "triathalon" and purchased "tickets" to the next warrior dash to leap over fire and impress their Facebook friends with how extreme they are.....

participation at local Sprint/Oly was down big time this year....10-20% and I suspect we are going to lose many local events over the next 2 years....we started losing them this year. The Oly distance is specifically dying with very few participants....

ha!...same thoughts at the same time from different places.....

That comes off as really judgmental and elitist, that attitude may also be driving newcomers away from the sport. I know it happened to a large extent in road cycling in the mid to late 80s.

Maybe a lot of people do warrior dash because they are great fun. I've done them twice and never once posted a picture on Facebook about it.

John,
It's always good to hear from someone so invested in *my* local tri community. You mention the numbers in the give-it-a-try races being down. I wonder if you can share any trends in the kids races, since I see that as an equally if not more important pipeline of new athletes?

Aside... My family were at Lakeside last weekend and our two kids raced. They look forward to that race all summer. My 9 year old son has done it for three years and my 6 year old daughter for 2. My son attempted a flying dismount from the bike but was moving too fast and bit it. He's scraped up and angry that there's no redemption race for him. I had no idea he was going for it, but we've been watching ITU all summer (he idolizes Gwen Jorgensen) so I guess he thought it looked easy.

See you at Barrelman!

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Munq

John,
You and Penni have some very good points. Local sprint and oly races are struggling for participants while Ironman chugs along at an amazing pace with the 70.3 and 140.6 races. I wonder how long that keeps up. Sprint and oly races were the gateway to 70.3 and IM but there seems to be a lot of newcomers that jump straight to the big IM races now.

I'm as guilty as anyone of not supporting local races. I live in the Houston, TX area where there's a local race every 1-2 weeks during the summer. I've done exactly one local race since 2011 because I have been in near constant training for a 70.3 or 140.6... because "racing small" would interfere with a training weekend.

I'll give you points for thinking out of the box with the "supported training day race" but when I originally read that I thought that was a huge miscalculation on your part. People either pay to race or they train for free. People aren't paying to train. Promotion is not the problem. Trust me. I'd scrap that idea going forward.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Your kid sounds awesome!

Every time I see those average income numbers I call b.s.

You factor in the sub 25 crowd, etc and it just doesn't seem possible.


I know i am bringing down that average, as are most of my circle of friends.


I mean when you have people doing gofundme's for their kona trip, things may not be adding up

Edit: posted from my phone, cleaned up from my computer

I'm inclined to agree.

When I look around me at races etc, I certainly don't see a bunch of doctors and lawyers (although I'm sure that they are over represented compared with the gen. pop.).

If I take my tri club as an example, I would certainly say that the average earnings are higher than in the general area. But it's not as if the car park is full of Jaguars.

Appearances are a poor way to judge someones income. You can look like a millionaire but not own a thing except a ton of debt, conversely you can look poorer but own everything you have and prioritize other things. My truck is 12 years old, has no A/C but works fine - doesn't look fancy. What you don't see are the classic car and wakeboard boat I would rather spend my money on.

In regard to the cost of entry fees that is why I haven't done IMTX yet. For the same amount I can compete at 7 or 8 local events through the year. I am seeing the cost of the kids events rise too which is a worry as my 2 kids love to do these, but at $60 each for an event that takes 20 minutes for them to complete when compared to the cost of an IM event as a $/hr the IM events begin to look cheap.

That might be the funniest thing I've ever read on this board. Two thumbs up.

Wait... You don't spend all your money on tri gear??
I'm afraid I don't understand.

You do have a good point regarding judging income based on what bike/car/etc somebody has though.

Great read. Do you mind if I post this on my facebook page triathlonjoe? I'm always trying to get people out to the local races because this is the lifeblood of the sport. I don't believe it's not the M dot series that fuels this sport.

In case my wife see's this - no I don't spend all our money on tri gear.

I was supporting a gofundme athlete and then they posted a photo of their living arrangements in a 5 million dollar home...some people just don't know how to budget. On the other hand, maybe folks with a higher income are more willing to divulge/humble brag on an income survey.

I this this is symptomatic of a maturing sport and the general race preferences of Americans. When I started running most everything was still measured in standard distances and races were 3, 5, 10, 1/2m, 15, 20, and marathon. 5 and 10 milers were common place. The occasional 20 miler was out there. Things went metric and the 15 and 20 milers mostly disappeared. A few 30Ks came in, but the 5/10 milers died and were replaced with 5K/10K double headers (and a few 8Ks). Then slowly the 10Ks started dying off. Now they are rare and the US running scene is principally characterized by the 5K, 1/2M, and Marathon. 8K/10K/15K races are the exception. Triathlon is heading the same place with most race distances being Sprint, HIM, IM. There will still be an Olympic here and there, but most people are either trained only for the sprint or they are all in and going long.

serious question: Why did you fund their race?

I think this has been discussed in some other threads. Here is an opinion again from one of those that "tried a tri" last year and this year. I grew up in team sports and do endurance sports now because that is all that is left at my age. Back in the day, I usually was in about 3 different basketball leagues each week with a softball league as well. A very full weekly slate. I do a lot of different things now. Running events up to marathon distance, organized bike rides up to century distance, mud run type of events, you name it. If it is out there I have probably tried it. First off, my opinion of the tri. I did an Oly duo last year. (It was going to be the tri but the wife wanted to do it and couldn't swim so we did the duo instead) Bear in mind, that my opinions have nothing to do with the physical difficulty of the event. Tris are very good vehicles for getting in shape but that is about it for me. As I was attempting the duo all I could think was this is it? This is supposed to be exciting? This is just about the most boring and least interesting sport I have ever tried. Tri only asks one thing of you, that you go the distance. That's it and you can plan for every part of the event. There is no other requirement other than you get to the finish line. There are some time cutoffs, but as long as you stay within them you can do whatever you want. No opponents or other things to deter you from finishing. Not much of a mental grind compared to other sports. There are 3 "different disciplines," but you do the same in all three. Set it on cruise control till the transition, change shoes, hat and vehicle(bike) then set it on cruise again. Change shoes, hat and vehicle again then set the cruise until the finish. That's it. It was not enjoyable.

At the start of this summer I was in between events and looking for something to do on a certain weekend. There was a very popular local sprint tri that was close on that weekend. I thought maybe I would give tri a second chance. This one had a OWS, and maybe I would have a better experience. The day came and it was SSDD. I did have a flat as I pulled my bike out of the car so there was some adversity/excitement. The pilgrimage down to the water and start was kind of exciting. The bike course had some up and down so there was some back and forth with other riders but that was about it. I still finished with that big feeling of Blah! I was looking for a test of overall athleticism and that was not it.

It is not important to this discussion that it wasn't for me. What is important is if I had enjoyed it and wanted to do it again.

I was sitting with others eating afterwards and they wanted my thoughts. I was nice and did not express my true thoughts. Instead, I asked what if I wanted to do it again next weekend? The advise I got was not to do any of these any more. I was told that I needed to start the journey towards an Ironman. Pick one on the schedule next year and beginning training for it. Get a coach, a training plan and a tri bike and all of the gear.. Then train your a** off and do your Ironman. I stated that I had no interest in one of those. What I just did was cheap, easy to get to , and I could be home mowing my lawn in the afternoon. They told me that until I completed some type of Ironman that I was not a true triathlete. I finished my meal, got up and left thinking this is not for me. If they want to make it their life that is their option.

The point of this long winded response is that the prevailing culture in tri is not good for the health of the sport. From what I can see if that culture continues the sport will die a slow death. "All in" is not good for the sport. Tri needs to push the attitude of "show up, do it, have a good time, then do the same thing again the next weekend." Some weeks you win and some weeks you lose. Now it is all about results. The experience has taken a back seat. It's all about your finishing time. Sacrifice your life, your money, whatever it takes to reach that goal. In the end the only one that cares about it is you.

That is why people are flocking to the Mud runs, Spartans, etc. They are fun and they don't take over your life.

Mean or median?

Cmore, thanks for sharing your opinions.

I do have a few comments/questions on what you said:

Firstly, you talk about just being in "cruise control" and that tri wasn't the test of your athleticism that you hoped for. This may sound like a dumb question, but were you trying hard enough?

Secondly, the people that you spoke to after your Oly event that gave you the talk about having to do an IM to be a "True triathlete" are idiots and should be ignored. Iron distance is certainly a badge of honour for many, but it's by no means the be all and end all.

Thirdly, If you quickly fell out of love with Tri, how come you still use Slowtwitch? This is a genuine question, and not for a minute am I suggesting that I don't think you're welcome here. It just strikes me as odd that you like to come here and chat tri if you don't enjoy the sport.

Liam

It said average, so it would be the mean.
I don't have access to anything more detailed than that.

You do pose a good explanation for the high average figure though.