I'm guessing you are quickly going to regret this post.....

As someone who does sales and marketing for consumer products, I would never talk to my customer base like that (even if it was warranted).

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

I think you need to learn some skill and tact with how to deal with potential customers on a forum. Learn from the likes of Phil White @ Cervelo, Damon Rinard @ Cannondale, Dave K @ Felt, Carl @ Trek...etc. You have a lot to improve.


Of note read this:

It's very simple: if you're trying to sell a product, the onus is on you to convince people to buy it. In the triathlon market, part of that sales process is presenting credible data about product performance. Ventum addressed the concerns about their test data by assuaging people with the message that they were going to do testing after Kona. It diminishes their credibility when they don't follow through. The amount of sweat poured into a product is not relevant to me, and many others, as a consumer; it's all about the results and performance. As someone in sales, that should be something that's very clear to you.

first off let me apologize for lashing out, I'm human and those who know me know I am very passionate and very loyal.. It's very easy to get emotionally attached to a project as we are working hours and into the night to make sure we are meeting the orders being placed by customers and retailers as well as responding to all of the questions we get on our website. I would challenge the statement that the sweat we pour into the product is not relevant on you as we aren't building anything half rear ended ( I chose not to swear as it obviously bothers some even though people aren't rebuked for telling me to STFU ) I won't apologize for pointing out I am not a simple "supporter" because of the context of which you passive aggressively tried to make it look like the company doesn't care. That isn't fair. If people could see the amount of hours the team puts in to make sure we are satisfying the customers we are working with you would understand why we aren't sitting here day in day out waiting to make sure slowtwitch is satisfied. Sorry If I don't agree that people on here say our data isn't credible. I won't ever say we are above criticism and I will never say people can't disagree with our approach, our methods, our lack of providing certain things as it is within their right. Again, sorry for responding so negatively...My rockets have slipped to 9th in the standings, our team has bad chemistry and we are probably going to trade Dwight Howard

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Kirk Noyes

Downtubes are for Dinosaurs

It isn't people on here saying your data isn't credible. It is the data itself saying your data isn't credible. There is a difference, and if you can't understand that difference, maybe you aren't the most qualified person to speak to that issue.

Yeah, non gold standard data not withstanding, I would never purchase even a bumper sticker from a company who would employ someone with this kind of attitude. Wow. Cody Beals is one of my favorite triathletes due to his down to earth nature and the way he translates pro triathlon to us mere mortals via his blog or on here. Personally I hope he never met you during his sponsorship acquisition and I can continue to root for him as his career develops. Association with this kind of condescension is exactly the opposite of what any triathlete needs.

Kirk, For your previous post...this is why I WILL buy this bike. I like the passion and the willingness to stand behind your product. Yeah, Ventum has some work to do, but for me...your passion on it is enough. I'm glad you don't pussy foot around, and you get to the point. Maybe in the worlds these other people live in...they'd like "a back rub and to be told everything will be fine", but in mine. I prefer swearing and getting down to brass tacks. Well done!

We will be in touch.

An antidote to what? Or are you trying to say anecdotal?

Anecdotal! Thanks for correcting.

No worries - not meaning to be a douche. Sometimes a 'hey, it works for me' is a nice antidote to the "1.5 watts faster!" marketing!

Well said. People are going way overboard in analyzing the wind tunnel. The bike design is known to be fast, and the diff between all these super bikes is kind of splitting hairs IMHO. And a lot of the folks complaining on here would be better off just buying the bike they think looks best 'cause that is probably the one that will be fastest.
I think it is also worth keeping in mind that unless you've personally been in the wind tunnel on all these bikes, you cannot tell which would be fastest for you. We all know things change when a rider gets on the bike, and then all riders are different shapes, positions, etc.
So assuming you aren't getting to a wind tunnel, stop focusing on which is 10 seconds quicker than the other without a rider, and start looking at which bike offers other good things (fit, integration, looks, warranty, quality, price, etc).
Kirk has been very quick to answer any questions I've sent his way, which is more than I can say for a lot of tri goods/bike companies..
I haven't thrown down for a new frame yet, but Ventum is still high on my list.

I agree to a lot of this but that is the thing. Aero is just one piece of the puzzle. I listened to the Podcast of Leanda talking about it on ** unnamed podcast **. In it she said more or less ~"the bike is ugly but it will grow on people, but it was designed for aero." But when I buy a bike, something I have done for every bike I have ever had, I want it to more than just Aero. I like TJ and Dimond, and I like Jimmy and the Ventum crew, but it is tough to imagine that the teams are further along in the design and building process the Trek, Cervelo, Felt, etc. The premium price tag is unjustified IMO.

Now, I haven't talked to Cody personally, but it blows my mind that he seemingly totally ignored the data regarding the Cervelo in the windtunnel doing something that has never been shown before. That should have been a huge red flag for someone I consider to be very meticulous. If I was Cody, the number one reason I would go with Ventum is the bike fast enough and they are willing to throw a lot of resources at him while someone like Trek would not. When I say resources, I do not mean purely financial resources.

Fwiw, last month Jimmy personally reached out to me on Facebook after a post. This is great service, but I don't understand why they wouldn't communicate directly here on Slowtwitch. You post once, answer follow-ups once, and you save yourself a lot of time in the process. It is incredibly inefficient to answer questions in the manner and although it "may" give the appearance of personalized service, too me it doesn't make much sense. But there lies the problem, Jimmy, Diaa, and the others are not dumb, so the only reason I can possibly think of not coming on here is that they know they are going to get torn to shreds and are clinging on to the only data that puts them in a favorable light.

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Many resources were offered to make this happen as well if I'm not mistaken.

Dude... You are not the only person here with a startup. And definitely not the person with a startup with the biggest technical or funding challenges. And you are even further from the only person on here that works long and hard hours. If anything is to get done, the onus is on you, not your potential customers. Coming on here and blaming the triathlon community for how your bike and your testing is being perceived shows a HUGE lack of understanding of how all this works, and it could be a killer for you. You are really the Director of Sales and you make a post like this? It's insane.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Hey, thanks for posting your tunnel photos. Always great to hear more about this kind of testing process. Would you be willing to share the choice of running the Torhans 30 on the Ventum? Did you test with and without the Torhans and find it faster, even with it fairly far in front of the headtube? Most of the positive testing results I've reviewed came from the Velodrome so yaw was low. I assume you ran yaw sweeps and know how the Torhans worked out at yaw.

One of the big pluses for the Ventum setup is the top tube hydration. Is the Torhans something you plan to substitute? Or is it supplemental for something like on-course nutrition?

You mention 3cm lower base bar, but in your case this looks like both the bar and pads were moved down 3cm and forward. It can't be shown completely from the side, but it looks like this narrowed up your shoulders and got your head down a little without stretching your arms out too far.

Sorry for all the questions and thanks for anything you're willing to share!

Oh come on, like engine design is complicated haha

I was using my torhans on my old bike and I was speaking with Diaa when I ordered the Ventum and he mentioned that the torhans did well in the tunnel, so when I raced with it the first time I used it.

With the front fairing on, it sits much closer to the head tube than the pictures show. I will say that for IM distance having the extra fluid in the torhans was nice, I kept water in the torhans and my carb drink in the hydration system. So no, in the future I think I will use both.

I did not do a run without the torhans, that probably would have been a good idea though. We did runs at 0 and 10deg.

In post #46 on this thread stevej was nice enough to post the xls file for the testing since I could not figure out how to do it, although I think Ive got it now.

I had a bunch of spacers under the stem at baseline and we gradually took them out for the runs, it turned out that 3.0cm lower was slightly better than my baseline. So yes, lowering the basebar, lowered the aeropads.

That gave Stindiana a run for his money for worst post/reply for someone trying to sell a product. Congrats... I guess.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

It's super easy :)

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

I don't find it hard to believe that the Ventum One, with it's radically different design, could be more aero than conventional double triangle designs, even highly refined ones produced by much larger engineering teams. The big players in the industry have limited themselves in that respect. The longtime industry leading P5 is UCI legal with an alternate fork! I bet the Cervelo engineers could also find some serious drag savings if they said screw it to UCI legality. As another example, Dimond also demonstrated that a small startup can compete aerodynamically with the industry leaders using an unconventional design.


Thomas, I like you and you generally make great contributions on the forum. But do you think I was thrilled to find another pro questioning my credibility on Slowtwitch, and speculating that I'm just a shill for a sponsor? I sure wouldn't do that. Maybe that's just the polite Canadian in me.

I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to here. I went over the Ventum Wind Tunnel Report and most of the discussion here on the forum with a fine-toothed comb long before I even began talking to Ventum. Ventum's testing protocol against the P5 is clearly spelled out in that document. You can debate the merits of rider vs riderless testing, and the hydration setups tested, but I still believe that the data support that the Ventum One is a wickedly fast bike. There's no established testing protocol for bikes and everyone seems to do it a little differently, with different pros and cons. My bike splits and power-speed relationship this season will be the bottom line.

I'm also aware of some criticism of the accuracy/precision of the FASTER wind tunnel by some on the forum, though I haven't personally seen the errant data. I'll form my own opinions later this month when I test at FASTER. I hope to share a write up on my experience. As someone who's spent a good deal of time in labs (including a major project with a small scale wind tunnel), I understand what good scientific protocol looks like and red flags to watch for. I've also consulted some knowledgeable folks to help develop my test plan.


I have a hard enough time keeping on top of the chatter on Slowtwitch. By the sounds of it, Jimmy and Diaa are way busier than me. Responding to a small minority of highly discerning but needy STers is probably lower on their priority list than actually selling bikes!

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CodyBeals.com | Instagram | TikTok
ASICS | Ventum | Martin's | HED | VARLO | Shimano | 4iiii | Keystone Communications

I'll be testing the TorHans Aero 30 vs a standard BTA bottle later this month. I would use this setup along with the integrated bottle to be entirely self-sufficient for a 70.3. The extra weight is pretty trivial on most courses. I don't like relying on aid stations because it's hard to know exactly what you're getting, hand offs are fumbled at least half the time, plus aid stations are a great place to attack ;)

I hear that flipping the mounting bracket can help position the Aero 30 closer to the head tube, which tends to be faster.

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CodyBeals.com | Instagram | TikTok
ASICS | Ventum | Martin's | HED | VARLO | Shimano | 4iiii | Keystone Communications

At the end of the day, the best way to trash talk on ST is using the same language everyone speaks: race results.

;)

I'm 100% confident you will be as fast and faster than most anybody else on that bike.

Thanks for the detailed data! I thought Steve's link was for your photos. Looks like you found a new helmet from that testing.

Looks like no angling up your bars. And the Garneau (M-2?) was slightly faster than baseline. What was your baseline suit? Did you continue to run the Garneau for the remaining runs?

Very cool to see the progression through your various runs.

Thanks Cody. It will be interesting to see your results. Or the results you can share!

I've run the Aero30 using the mount upside down in a u-shape on a SC9 to get the bottle pretty close to the headtube. I'm on a Dimond now and the gap to the headtube is quite a bit further out now. This prompted my question on spasmus's Torhans on the Ventum. But I can see that with the brake fairing in place it will close a lot of that gap on the Ventum.

Yes that dreadful POC helmet was the best on me. I thought I looked the coolest in the WASP!!! They project 4 images of different camera angles on the ground while you are riding so you can monitor your movement, I thought I looked like a "badass pro" from all those different angles, not a 46yo aging age grouper!!

There is a slight angle on the bar, we angled it up higher for one run, but it did not make much difference.

I used the Scody suit for baseline and yes the Garneau was slightly faster, but I like that the Scody has pockets in the back for ice on the run, so I changed back into that for the rest of the runs since I will race in it.

And I do have that tohans bracket under the bars to get it closer like Cody mentioned.