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Tyler's suspension compared to Palmeiro's in Sp-Ill:
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Frank DeFord's column this week:

Crime and (sort of) punishment Baseball could learn a lot from cyclist Tyler Hamilton Posted: Thursday August 11, 2005 2:49PM; Updated: Friday August 12, 2005 12:58AM Unlike how baseball has treated Rafael Palmeiro, cycling has forced Tyler Hamilton to sit while he appeals his suspension. Alexander Hassenstein/Bongarts/Getty Images Xavix BaseballGet off the couch and into your games. XaviX system technology senses your movements,... http://www.xavix.com Baseball DVDGet a free coaching DVD from the hitting expert for the Oakland A's. Take control of... http://www.hitting.com Baseball Gear at The Batter's BoxGet both feet in The Batter's Box. Dig in for a full line of DeMarini, Worth, Wilson,... http://www.aluminumbats.com Save Money on Diamondbacks TicketsYou'll get four Arizona Diamondbacks tickets plus a coupon for a premium product or a... http://www.mlb.com

Something is terribly out of whack here. Tyler Hamilton, an American cyclist, tested positive for blood doping last year. Even as he appeals, he is in the process of serving a two-year suspension. Rafael Palmeiro tested positive for steroids and endured a suspension of 10 days. The disparity in the penalties is simply ludicrous. Either the Olympic judgment, as meted out by the World Anti-Doping Agency, is too severe ... or baseball law is a joke.

To be sure, Palmeiro has been disgraced, and in light of his sworn testimony before Congress, he's been exposed as a liar as well as a cheat. He also may have lost his chance to be voted into the Hall Of Fame. But justice is not supposed to be about peripheral castigation. Do the crime, do the time. Ten days for an offense of this nature is asinine. Pete Rose was banished from the game for transgressions that were nowhere near as damaging to baseball.

The fact is that the players' union has its integrity on the line. If it does not go along with Commissioner Bud Selig and dramatically stiffen doping penalties, then it reveals itself not to be a support force for its honest members, but an enabling agency for its culprits.

As a point of passing interest, it's worth noting that Hamilton, the cyclist, actually has a good case for acquittal. Circumstantially, he looks so guilty he could also be fairly charged with killing Cock Robin. Blood doping means transfusing extra blood or blood products into your body. More red cells, more endurance. And Hamilton came up positive in a new test for blood doping after winning a gold medal at the Olympics last year. Then, only a few weeks later, Hamilton tested positive again at a race in Spain.

But here's the rub. While the tests clearly showed that Hamilton had two different blood populations in his system, it can't prove how the second blood got there.

But if not by transfusion, then how?

Well, some esteemed doctors claim that as much as 50 percent -- maybe even all -- of us are chimeric. That means that we have traces of other blood in our systems that have been there since the womb. This second blood either comes from the mother or from what is known as a "vanishing twin" -- that is: a second embryo that was conceived but failed to develop.

If all that sounds like something out of a Stephen King novel -- and, indeed, the anti-doping people hoot at it -- Hamilton owns serious medical support for his appeal, which comes up in September.

Unfortunately for Palmeiro, he can't claim that it was his evil vanishing twin who took the steroids. He's just very lucky that his sentence is only 1.4 percent what Hamilton -- or any Olympic athlete -- must serve for the same first offense.

Too much of our discussion about baseball's drug users is devoted to the past. Can we excise the records of those who are so transparently guilty of steroid use? Can we bestow asterisks? Can we undo those things that ought not to have been done? No, we can't. We can't re-write history. Get over it.

Instead, what we can do is deal with the present and the future, and the prime thing on that agenda is to force the baseball union to own up to its responsibilities and properly punish the bad guys.

T


"The mind can calculate, but the spirit yearns, and the heart knows what the heart knows."
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Re: Tyler's suspension compared to Palmeiro's in Sp-Ill: [SouthernTim] [ In reply to ]
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Baseball is a joke. It's a little bit more athletic than golf, and twice as boring.

In a free country, athletes should have the right to use steroids and die young (see Alzado, Lyle; Payton, Walter; Matuzak, John...). On top of that, your johnson shrinks from steroid use. Maybe some of you can afford that, but this white boy is fightin' with a short stick from the git-go. How stupid would someone have to be to cut their life expectancy in half?

Next comes the whole discussion about whether the unfair advantage of PEDs would force people to use them. Maybe that's something only the elites need to worry about. Doping in sports makes only slightly more sense than suicide bombing as a career path.


Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...
Last edited by: Cousin Elwood: Aug 12, 05 6:23
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Re: Tyler's suspension compared to Palmeiro's in Sp-Ill: [Cousin Elwood] [ In reply to ]
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Your saying Walter Payton used steriods? You know this to be fact or are you just throwing his name out there.
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Re: Tyler's suspension compared to Palmeiro's in Sp-Ill: [Cousin Elwood] [ In reply to ]
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From my perspective using steroids et al is silly - the might help me win the 40 + age group at a local tri at best. For someone who grew up in a bad inner city or destitute country and from an early age is told he has say pro football potential? Say he gets to junior year in college and all the coaches and scouts are telling him he now probably wont get drafted because he's just a touch slow and a touch light. A few pills and bam is round pick guaranteed 20 mil. I'm not saying its right, but its easy to see the temptation.



Styrrell
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Re: Tyler's suspension compared to Palmeiro's in Sp-Ill: [Spider] [ In reply to ]
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Sweetness died of cancer. Not heart failure.
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Re: Tyler's suspension compared to Palmeiro's in Sp-Ill: [lucky] [ In reply to ]
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Nothing to do with Payton, but various forms of cancers have been linked to steroids, EPO is linked to haert failure.



Styrrell
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Re: Tyler's suspension compared to Palmeiro's in Sp-Ill: [SouthernTim] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think Tyler tested positive at the Olympics. That is why he still has his medal. He tested positive a couple times after the olympics. If 50% of us have this condition of blood mixing, then here's my question. WHy do not 100's of athletes tested also test positive for this. The only other case was a teammate of Tylers. I'm not saying that it is not possible, but to listen to the doctors defending Tyler, I just have to laugh. They are like the paid experts that testify in court for a living. Just justify what the client needs said. One doctor says one in a million, the other 50%, and it somehow conviently disappears from time to time. I'm sorry, it just doesn't pass the test of reasonableness in my mind. Maybe Tyler is the one in a million, but with his clowns defending him, he looks guilty as hell.

As for Palmerio, he is a moron, and every interview with him just furthers that image. The10 days is a joke, but he will suffer for the rest of his life on this one. I hope they fry him in congress, and his buddy Bush who blindly defends him. Hard to tell who is the bigger moron here.....
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Re: Tyler's suspension compared to Palmeiro's in Sp-Ill: [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Hello Monty,

Tylers initial sample tested positive at the OG, his second sample was frozen and could not be retested so he keeps the medal. When I've read the testers side he's guilty as sin, when I read Tylers side he's being railroaded. This test is new (not the actual test, but the application). I sincerely hope that the test is correct and their is not politics involved.



Styrrell
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Re: Tyler's suspension compared to Palmeiro's in Sp-Ill: [Cousin Elwood] [ In reply to ]
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Payton died from a rare liver disease. The disease, primary sclerosing cholangitis, afflicts just three in 100,000 people, said Payton's physician, Dr. Joseph Lagattuta. The cause of the disease, which blocks the bile ducts, is unknown, but isn't related to alcohol, steroids, hepatitis or immune deficiency, he said.
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Re: Tyler's suspension compared to Palmeiro's in Sp-Ill: [smtyrrell99] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the clarifycation, I just remembered that he still had his medal, so figured it was the later tests that got him. He did get away with one there, but just like Palmerio, he will suffer for this for the rest of his career. And they took two of his best potential years away from him for this, so I do hope it was a valid test. I have to believe it was after all I've seen and read....
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Re: Tyler's suspension compared to Palmeiro's in Sp-Ill: [SouthernTim] [ In reply to ]
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You beat me to it. I heard that on Wed and was waiting for them to print it on Frank DeFord's page on SI.com

Nice that someone is taking notice of the disparity in sports.
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Re: Tyler's suspension compared to Palmeiro's in Sp-Ill: [SouthernTim] [ In reply to ]
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There are a few differences between Tyler's and Raffy's cases that are worth pointing out.

One, Raffy has no way to prove his innocence, unless he has a video of Jose Canseco spiking his protein shake. I'm no hematologist, but it seems logical Tyler could prove chimerism with a bone marrow biopsy.

The other point is that it just doesn't make sense for Palmeiro to juice at this point when he already has Hall of Fame numbers. The risk/reward ratio is not favorable for him. Tyler on the other hand is in a position to be more hungry for fame and fortune, and his form of cheating is more directly related to performance benefits.


Coach at KonaCoach Multisport
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Re: Tyler's suspension compared to Palmeiro's in Sp-Ill: [PresbyOpie] [ In reply to ]
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The whole "I have no reason to cheat" thing is bull, for anyone. The 3000/500 thing is his ticket to the hall of fame. Assuming he has a big ego thats reason enough, not to mention money. He never said he was retiring so he's play for a contract and theirfore millions of $$. Besides people take steroids just to be the best weightlifter in a little poducnk gym.

Styrrell
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Re: Tyler's suspension compared to Palmeiro's in Sp-Ill: [PresbyOpie] [ In reply to ]
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A couple more observations....

Palmerio didn't just start juicing, probably been most his career. If he went off the stuff, he would shrivel up and disappear, especially at his age. He probably started taking more to compensate for his age. He went undetected for so many years, he just probably figured he could get away with it. As I said before, he is not the shinest penny in the jar..

If all Tyler needed to do is another test of bone marrow to prove his innocence, then why hasen't he??? I'll answer my own question here, because he already has, and it didn't prove anything. Come on people, if he was truly innocent, and a simple test would prove it, wouldn't you do it the next day, and avoid all this suspension and humilation??? Test of reasonableness once again....
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Re: Tyler's suspension compared to Palmeiro's in Sp-Ill: [smtyrrell99] [ In reply to ]
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You may be right, but he can't have that big of an ego... Would you want to be the Viagra spokesman?


Coach at KonaCoach Multisport
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Re: Tyler's suspension compared to Palmeiro's in Sp-Ill: [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Howdy,

I don't want to sound like an apologist, but when you read his side he has been tested and found to have some abnormalities. At his first hearing 1 out of 3 judges agreed with him. He now is having his last shot with the CAS. According to him (from articles) his frustration is in getting the authorities to look at his testing and evidence.



Styrrell
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Re: Tyler's suspension compared to Palmeiro's in Sp-Ill: [monty] [ In reply to ]
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I’m as big a Tyler skeptic as the next person but just because I do not understand something does not mean it is not true.



The cultural disregard for science these days is very scary to me. If we all went be the “reasonable test” the world would still be flat.

Every time there is an advance in technology that changes the paradigm, you will always find people saying “that just ain’t right…. It does not pass the test reasonableness ….. look you can see the earth is flat, we would fall off if it was round”.



I do not know who is right in this case but when I see the wada dismiss the test out of hand, it disturbs me. I would hope they would have their experts look at the evidence without prejudice.

gb
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Re: Tyler's suspension compared to Palmeiro's in Sp-Ill: [smtyrrell99] [ In reply to ]
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I'm sure some of the problem that the authorties are having with this, are his quack doctors. The authorties are probably asking the same questions we are, if 50% have it, then why don't 50% test positive. If a bone marow test would prove conclusive of chrimerism, then where are your results. It just seems that they are making up the defense as they go along, kind of like OJ's case. Deflect from the real issue with all these other possibilties, and maybe confuse those in charge. It worked for OJ, maybe Tyler is using the same tactic...
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Re: Tyler's suspension compared to Palmeiro's in Sp-Ill: [Train in Vain] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with you on all your points. I believe that science has to police itself as it goes along, and it is often flawed. My test of reasonableness was directed at Tylers doctors comments about the 50% of us that have this anomoly, and why half of us are not testing positive for it now...That just smacks of quackery to me, but I actually hope he is innocent, and he is that one in a million. Most great athletes are quite different physicaly than the general population, that is why they rise to the top... His testing procedure definately needss to be scrutinized further...
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Re: Tyler's suspension compared to Palmeiro's in Sp-Ill: [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Where are you getting bone marrow test?.......Not trying to flame here, just never heard that one before.



As I understand it, the MIT doctor called Tyler and said hey their test does not sound reasonable based on what we know now of blood. Maybe he is a quack but even one of wada’s scientist who signed off on the test, agrees the basic assumptions of tylers defense. If wada has looked at all the new test and research and tyler is guilty as hell, great. It just looks like they are dismissing it out of hand. My issue is with the process.


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Re: Tyler's suspension compared to Palmeiro's in Sp-Ill: [Train in Vain] [ In reply to ]
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On th bone marrow test, I believe I heard on some news program that it is a way to test for chrimerism. And a few posts up, presby also mentioned it. Perhaps some of our illustrious doctors can chime in here and clear up our assumptions.

I also worry about the test, doesn't mean Tyler is innocent, but if it proves untrustworthy, then he is innocent in the eyes of the law. I remember my first tests back in the mid 80's, we peeded into open containers, wrote our own names on a piece of tape, taped it to the open cup. and set them on a table with 30 other samples. All in a room, with all the athletes, managers, and press, milling around this table. And yes, there were athletes using in those days that got away with it, because of the shoddy testing procedures. It's what got things changed over the years. It's the same as the death penalty laws, better to let 10 guilty go, than convict one innocent. So for better or worse, you could say the few cheats over the years who contested the procedures and won, are the ones who have helped refine the system.
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Re: Tyler's suspension compared to Palmeiro's in Sp-Ill: [monty] [ In reply to ]
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On th bone marrow test, I believe I heard on some news program that it is a way to test for chrimerism. And a few posts up, presby also mentioned it. Perhaps some of our illustrious doctors can chime in here and clear up our assumptions.

Well, I'm not an illustrious doctor, but...

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...one%20marrow;#479750

Glad to hear it was on the news as well and I'm not (totally) talking out of my ass!

_______________________________________________
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Re: Tyler's suspension compared to Palmeiro's in Sp-Ill: [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Hello,

Again this is from a tyler interview, but the test showed he had the equivalent of a tablespoon of "foreign" blood mixed with his, which in any case would hardly be a benefit. One of his doctors surmised that up to 50% of the population could have blood abnormalities at this level. Levels this small have never really been looked into. I would be curious to hear WADA side of this specific arguement, if in fact both the Olympic test and the actual test that got him banned really showed that small of an abnormality. If it did I tend to say let the dude ride, its not like traces of steroids or EPO where having taken it in the past still helps you.

Styrrell
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Re: Tyler's suspension compared to Palmeiro's in Sp-Ill: [SouthernTim] [ In reply to ]
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Tyler received a more severe penalty because the size of his head is greater than his whole chest-shoulder region. No man's upper body should be that small.

Palmeiro is just benefitting from baseball's infancy in punishing illegal steroid use. Steroid use just recently became illegal in baseball. Baseball will eventually get there. Until then, everyone will have a chance to soapbox their views.

In a free country, athletes should have the right to use steroids and die young (see Alzado, Lyle; Payton, Walter; Matuzak, John...).

I don't see the point in dragging Walter's name through the mud. Alzado (not doctors) attributed his brain cancer to steroids, Walter never did. I don't want to over-react b/c I am a Bears' fan ... but mentioning Walter's name is about as fair as if you had mentioned Hank Gathers.

On top of that, your johnson shrinks from steroid use.

Your testicles shrink a bit since they are not producing as much test. Once steroid use stops, they regain their original function and size.

If steroids made your Johnson shrink ... I'd be taking them. I only mention that joke because, IMO, people will remember the joke and rmember that steroid use temporarily shrinks the testicles, not the penis. (CE, I don't know if you were making a joke or not)

I'm not saying its right, but its easy to see the temptation.

Or try this one ... you're a pro athlete, and every year, you lose a little bit of athleticism and the fresh young crop of studs (that are using) are trying to bump you down the depth chart, or out of your sport completely. Not all athletes have a "contingency plan" for a life after the sport.

As I have said before, I do know a few guys that have been pros and a few others that make it very close. They (not all) simply viewed steroid use as something you had to do because everyone else was ... or they viewed it as "part of becoming serious about what you are doing".

I have said before that I would not use them because my son does what I do. I am also not a competitive athlete (anymore) and I was never a pro ... so really, my opinion (on that specific matter) isn't all that relevant.

Besides people take steroids just to be the best weightlifter in a little poducnk gym.

Sad, but true. You would be amazed at the variety and volume of steroids some people take just to be "the stud" (or among the studs) at your local YMCA (or even high school gym). I wish I were joking. I can understand why someone would use steroids when it comes to million dollar contracts and lack of life options ... but I have never understood taking such health risks (from abuse, not mod use) just to be impressive to a handful of people.

------------------------

As a side ... if steroids were as dangerous as some folks make them out to be, lots of people would be dropping like flies. I wonder how many people, use moderate amounts of steroids, and rotate on/off cycles, with little to no health problems?

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
Last edited by: TripleThreat: Aug 12, 05 11:11
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Re: Tyler's suspension compared to Palmeiro's in Sp-Ill: [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Monty,

You've obviously got your reasons to believe TH is guitly and that's fine. But I think some things need to be cleared up regarding the above posts.

1. TH initially testing negative at the Olympics. That's why his B sample was frozen and then not available for further testing. For some reason (YET TO BE EXPLAINED), someone decided to re-evaluate TH's A sample AFTER it had been deemed negative - which was/is against WADA's testing procedures. The people that reevaluated the test had a vested interest because they were in fact, the people that developed the Blood transfusion test - It's their reputation and $$ on the line.

And why do you think the IOC washed their hands of this as fast as possible - because they followed WADA's procedures and then WADA said they screwed up? Don't think so. I also think, but and not 100%, that the IOC was the last organization to sign the WADA charter and there hand was forced by WADA. Something like that.

2. TH has to prove why he quote "tested positive". One possible reason is the belief of Chimerism (sp?). The media has taken this possiblity and run with it and made it TH's main defense. People keep forgetting that the test was only run on (or at least the only published paper on the test) a sample of 25 people. It has never been tested on a large population for the possibility of a false positive. And the crazy thing is that WADA and USADA have taken the approach that there's no way their test is infallible. Their belief that the test couldn't be screwed up is hard to believe and the test relies on "I'll know it when I see it" technology. How would you like to go up against that in court?

TH's main defense is that the test isn't perfect. People and the media are just focusing on the Chimerism possibility.

I personally think TH is getting screwed by WADA. I believe WADA has their own agenda and the recent 'reversals' lead me to believe I'm correct. Look at what Beke was able to do and WADA's reaction - to develop a better test?? How many were screwed by a test pushed into production too early?. The Mark French recent overturn. CAS also overturned a recent ruling for the USA Track team enabling the relay members to keep their gold even though one of the teammembers shouldn't have been allowed to run. CAS made this ruling because the governing body didn't follow the correct procedures.

TH's teammate is taking his case to the civil court because he wants his case heard for the facts (my guess). TH decided to play by the rules and go through USADA and CAS. If his case has been tried in a 'normal' court, he would be racing today because too many procedures/processes were broken in TH's case. How would you feel if you were targeted for testing and the people doing the testing knew exactly whose samples they were testing?

I can't explain why two teammates tested positive. The crazier thing is how come no one else has tested positive? Is it possible that TH and Perez were THE ONLY two in the peleton doping this way? Highly unlikely IMO. And as for Perez, if he was doping during the Vuelta last year, he would have been caught then, not two months after the race. The UCI was able to find TH guilty within days during the Vuelta, but not Perez? Makes you wonder what's going on behind the scenes.


TheBikeRacer.com
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