I'm pretty sure continuity of swim is not what's holding back my swim performance. It's probably that I'm not a good swimmer and need to swim more to improve. I"m pretty sure flip turns shouldn't be in the top 3 items I need to work on when I'm at the pool. Flip turns certainly aren't detrimental to tri training but I'm pretty sure they're not the main reasons holding back an AOS swimmer from swimming faster in a triathlon.

No kidding. Like swimming in the same lane as actual swimmers: probably the best thing you could do to improve your swim.

Oh, wait: that would require that you learn flip turns. Never mind.

(As an AOS myself (age 26 or so), I managed to learn flip turns over the course of a month or so to the level of proficiency that allowed a sub-1:00 100scy within six months. I helped my daughter to learn how to do them; at age 13 she taught her 75+ year old grandmother ("Omi") how to do flip turns in less than half a dozen sessions. I also, in over 30 years, never hit my heels on the deck during a turn. Missed plenty of turns, but never that. YMMV)

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Oh, I missed and hit my heels plenty of times but that was because I couldn't see. (-8 and -8.5 prescriptions). Then I got prescription goggles, and things were much better.

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There's a missing poll option. I don't flip turn, don't think it is detrimental, but don't think it helps tri training either. Just don't pop your head out of the water at the wall to take that one free breath, and you are fine without flip turning.

TC you made my afternoon.

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

why not?

it isn't the breath that is detrimental, it is taking too long on the wall to turn.

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:D

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Heels in gutter on plastic bulkhead = ouch ...

BTW Scruffy is racing at our meet this weekend ...

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

Oh you'd be surprised. Trust me - as said, I'm not sweating the fine details, but learning to do a half-baked flip turn takes like 3-5 sessions and you're DONE. Sure, it takes more than that to get really proficeint at it, but you will be able to flip reliably albeit at a slower pace after 1-2 weeks in the pool. (It won't be faster than an open turn at first.)

Those open turns the way 90% of AOS swimmer do them, have built in 0.5-1sec rest at EVERY wall. And it's really closer to 1sec wall (I've timed it). You might tell yourself you're swimming continuously, but it's not compared to the -4sec/100 lack of rest on the flip turn.

Hear! (from a non-swimmer too)

I'd also like to add that your ability to learn flip-turns most likley gives you a pretty good idea of your possible "talent" as an AOS. Flip-turns are not hard, but require some coordination and feel for the water. If you are coordinated like an eplieptic string-puppet you probably have a hard time flip-turning. However, you also probably have a hard time finding good swim-form. Not sure this helps anyone - its more of a general observation :)

Yep, I read it and chuckled a little. As a pro, the pro who flip turns in practice will ALWAYS beat the pro that doesn't. The hypoxic training makes you FASTER. That is why you learn to flip turn ;-)

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DFL > DNF > DNS

I can't tell if the last part in pink or not. In seriousness the hypoxic thing is a debate for a different thread but my thing is if you want hypoxic training then just don't breathe coming into and out of the wall. Regardless I am always watching people flip turn who learned later in life. I would say that 75% of them are NOT really doing good flip turns and they often are pushing off the wall in a manner where they are not square putting a lot of stress on the spine/back. Imagine doing a squat like that on dry land. I realize this is not as big of a deal in water but doing that hundreds of time a sessions day in and day out. Not great for the back.

For those that learned to swim when younger, their flip turns are usually much more solid. Which is my point about people trying to teach people to flip turn for adult onset swimmers. There really is no point because you aren't going to be there to reinenforce that they do it with good form time and time again so instead of being a strength you just build these weird imbalances.

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Curious what your point is with this line of discussion? How did talk of flip turns get shifted to how fast people are who dolphin kick off the wal?? Obviously the best swimmers all flip turn and can push off the wall...how does that relate to what priorities an average triathlon swimmer should focus on?

his seed time in the 400 suggests he has been training at least a little bit...

I'm one who put that, but really none of the options quite fit me. I am an adult onset swimmer who after many years has become front of the pack (age group) and many times FOTW. I have an old football knee injury that flares up every time I try flip turns, so I just don't do them (although I can). i have found that when I swim with flip-turners I have to do a little micro sprint at each turn to catch them. I really believe this has made me a much better swimmer. I'm not fast in the pool, but not bad at all in open water.

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

Got a link to heat sheets?

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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100% misread the survey. I though it said:

I don't do flip turns and don't think it's
detrimental...

...oh well... chalk that one up as a polling error.

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just your average age grouper . no one special . no scientific knowledge . just having fun.

In my opinion, flip turns benefit the average triathlete for several reasons:

1) Faster than open turns - allows you to swim more yardage in a shorter period of time
2) Flip turns are standard at Masters - helps you fit in and train with swimmers faster than you
3) Flip turns promote good streamline and feel for the water
4) People will take you more seriously if you can do a flip turn. I see somebody doing open turns and I avoid them like the plague at lap swim (actually, it's the main reason I don't go to lap swim anymore).
5) You will feel more like a competent swimmer if you can do a flip turn. Confidence is everything in open water.
6) Flip turns help build aerobic capacity because they require more oxygen than an open turn.

I could go on, but these are the big ones that come to mind. My husband is learning flip turns now - it's hard for him as an adult-onset swimmer, but he's improved quite a bit in the last few months. We "raced" at the pool the other day and he just hates seeing me push off so far ahead of him after each turn (and my turns are terrible for someone who learned them at age 7). For a while he cited the "oxygen burn" as not worth it, but now he's doing more flip than open turns. He has his first 1,000 yard pool race this weekend - right now he's planning on doing a mix of flip and open turns. We'll see how that goes.

Anyway, I'm firmly in the camp that flip turns are a worthwhile investment for triathletes.

Posted to FB...

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

You can still swim with "real swimmers" just go last in the train. Swim in the lane where you can do that and you are set. I can flip turn but don't. I don't see how it will help or hinder triathlon swim training.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Are they getting a 'free' breath, or avoiding the hypoxic period that comes with slow/bad flip-turns and which builds with time?

I find I can flip-turn easily at the start of the set, but by about 500m in they fuck me over and I'm a headached mess who wants to get out of the pool.

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'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'

Well said.

I don't do flip turns for the simple reason in that it cuts down on available stroking distance. That and they make me dizzy :-P

Why isn't there a poll option

"I flip turn and look like a geriatric hippo with parkinsons but all the cool kids said I should do it so I do"

Seriously, 90% of triathletes that flip turn are just plain comical in how poorly executed they are that a flat turn would be faster anyway.

never done a flipturn. 50 min IM swim PB.