I would have to agree with iron_mike.

All these ideas are great BUT it will never happen IMHO. Why, as an USAT Official when I get out on
the course I look at each infraction I see and put a clock on you the entire time I see a person in
violation. After the time allowed has expired and the individual has made no attempt to get clean, I
record as much info as possible on that individual.....I mean all I can get. Once that person decides to get clean,
I record that time.

Now here is a tid bit of information I believe everyone does not hear. When I get off the course, I then go to the
run course and watch as long as possible for any infractions. Once I am done at this part of the race,
I have to de-brief my Officials. Yes, we do de-brief to make sure all information is correct and the Official is
150% confident on their call. Then, I have to transfer all that information on 2 sets of
documents. Once finished, I have to post for all the athletes to see.


Now, in every race I have been to, I get alot of pressure to post my violations under a certain amount of time.
I have to post before awards. Now, I want everyone out there tell me straight up that at every race it
seems like everyone wants the to go to awards asap. Well, if I do not go through my race as effiicient as possible
under a deadline.......then I am on the spot for not doing my job.

Video.....will never work. You have to review every infraction on the video and again, we have to get
penalties done asap so you all can get your awards and go home

mats......almost the same as video

Megaphone.....please you can not be serious here.

You are going to sit here and tell me that I can scream at you with a megaphone " to please not draft"
so you can turn around and keep doing it. Wait, when I get pulled over for speeding by an police officer,
I do not get a warning. If I did, I will surely do it again. Why, because he just showed me he is not
serious on writing my violation.

Bottom line..........if we can all spend $$$$$$ on our tri toys and equipment, then why can't we take a few
minutes and read the rules.

I am all up for discussing methods for how to correctly spot rule violations and assigning penalties, and I think the ongoing brainstorming is great. I still contend the end of this evil is: 1) Officials slashing more numbers, and 2) Implementation of REAL penalties (ie, 2-4 extra run miles at the end of the run). The 4minute bin is a joke and encouraging to those who like to cheat.

To contribute to the ideas for methods of enforcing, I second the idea of an officiating crew riding 'undercover' throughout the course, with radios. A pack would roll up on one of these seemingly 'slower' riders, and the official could radio all the numbers he/she can see to the rest of their crew. They could divide the course up in segments, maybe 5mi long, with several riders and a couple of marshals per segment or something like that. Right, so it's not cutting edge technology, but it's another option...

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Dad, Husband, Weekend Warrior

Blog , JC Tweets

How come no comment on my blimp idea?

Everyone could be wearing a beacon to identify themselves and you could write drafting penalties from the edge of space. :)

Cops write tickets from airplanes.

jaretj

Now you have added 1 helicopter or more to the price to relay the microwave signal to where the people are watching the video feed...and microwave transmitters and recievers. I think we are in the high 5 figure range on equipment alone. If my math his correct...and it probably isnt. That is $40 more per entrant.

The radio idea is probably the best I have heard yet.

The only problem I see with this is, when RD's fill
out sanctioning papers they do not have to have
Officials at their races unless they are Championship
status races. So if an RD decides not to bring them in
.......no Officials at all. Now I have been to several races
and we have no motorcycles OR not enough. That
would put the radio concept into question. Yes,
you could have volunteers, but then again the RD
has to have them for you or the Official is going to
end up not being able to what he came in for.

I have heard of the mp3 to record the violation, but at
de-brief you then have to go over that tape again
and again and every race I am at........time is not my friend.

You would not believe the verbal abuse and comments we
recieve if we are not prompt on violations.
Part of the job though.

good idea on the radios.......

I'm not convinced drafting is the serious problem people make it out to be.

In my opinoin, there are only two types of drafting need serious attention: (1) packs and (2) prolonged, blatant drafting where one rider follows another in the draft zone well beyond the passing time limit. These are the types of drafting that most affect honest competitors. Other types drafting likely have too little effect on the race outcome to be worth spending time and significant resources addressing. That's not that other types of drafting should be overlooked when spotted, but that officials should spend time looking for packs and prolonged, blatant drafting.

And I think that the two more serious types of drafting can be effectively policed by reasonably well trained officials on a motorbike, provided there are enough of them. Each bike would be manned by two officials and assigned to police a segment of the course. (I think 4 bikes for a 40k course would usually be sufficient, more bikes would be necessary if it's a large field.) Upon spotting a pack, the bike would follow for a requisite time, take in the pack's dynamics then would write down the race numbers of the drafters. And it would be too hard to spot drafting outside of the pack. If the drafting is borderline or if there is merely the potential for drafting (i.e, rider is in the draft zone but time has not elapsed), the official could shout out a warning (i.e, "you better hurry and make that pass or its a draft") or he could wait to see if the rider corrects on his own. If it's clearly drafting in the opinion of the official, the the number gets written down.

While officials should be able to document and justify penalties to the head official, who would make a final determination, once the decision is made and posted, it should be final.

Most of us hate drafters, but none of us want to be repsonsible for enforcement. We don't like tattlers, but what other reasonable solution is there. I do like Monty's pack pull-over, in addition.

What about--"Hey! A@*#h*#@ cut the drafting." AND "Hey! ref! Those A@*#h*#@s are drafting like crazy. Watch 'em." combined with the stealth refs dressed as participants. If we hate drafting enough we should target the drafters.

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_________________
Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.

Agree with you on all counts. My only comment is that people bent on cheating will disregard whatever comment given by other competitors in an attempt to break up a pack or a tight line. Some even respond aggresively.

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Dad, Husband, Weekend Warrior

Blog , JC Tweets

I *think* I follow what you are saying... correct me if I am wrong, but the paperwork you speak of (for penalty assignment) is typically how it's done for short-course races. Is this right?

Whether I got it right or not, can you explain how the actual nuts & bolts of the logistics of officiating work for an IM competition?

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Dad, Husband, Weekend Warrior

Blog , JC Tweets

Because blimps are expensive. Plus, the FAA hasn't really defined many rules for safe low-level flight of dirigibles yet. Beacons wouldn't be much help unless you had at least 3 blimps in the air picking up their signals to properly triangulate their positions. And even then the area covered might not be enough for just 3 blimps. Then you have the issue of signal resolution since you'd want something within 0.25 meters at least.

Speeding is a lot easier to catch since they can time how fast you pass 1/4 mile markers.

No offense to the original poster, it's great that people want to find solutions. BUT I think that we simply need are more officials that are better trained, are willing to write penalties and are allowed to use common sense. We also need governing bodies that will push the race directors to make sure races have adequate, trained officials in order to receive sanctioning.

For a fraction of the price of all these high-tech ideas a formalized official training program could be implemented that helps put more good officials on the race course.

bk

That's why I also suggested reporting the flagrant drafting to a race worker, who can then have one of the stealth refs check it out. Short of having constant GPS on everyone's bike, combined with helicopter cameras, how else is one to deal with this? Not all of the drafters ride in packs.

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_________________
Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.

A nice technology to use might be infrared transponders. Something along the lines of TV remote control. Limit the forward spread to about a 30 or 45 degree cone with receivers behind the saddle. Hook up a timer/beeper, so that if the receiver is getting an 'on' signal from any transponder for a certain amount of time, it goes off in increasing intensity. This way you can have officials along the course who can verify if it is drafting or a false alarm. This would also account for failed passes since once you are essentially alongside, the receiver will no longer be receiving any signal and can't tell if you pass or drop back. The only thing this wouldn't account for is riding side by side or situations in which echeloning would be the best draft. On the plus side, you'll also hear if anyone is drafting off of you. Well, until they wise up and block the signal with their hand or a piece of tape.

The mats idea is far from ridiculous. Expanding on what Wags says above and someone else mentioned, you can have dummy mats and live mats in pairs. Or even all dummy mats, so long as nobody finds out.

The algorithm isn't that difficult either. A simple solution is 2 mats 7 m apart. If you're inside that zone at the same time as someone in front of you, you need to have an avg speed through it that is sufficiently higher than their avg speed to be passing (remember, there's no provision for failing to pass and dropping back; you either pass or you're drafting). It won't catch every drafter, but it also won't "catch" any innocents.

Actually, now that I write it, it is a little ridiculous. You could fool those mats by accelerating toward the person in front of you in the zone.

I really can't believe this post is still on the front boards... It really was posted out of the frustration of the continuous beating that this topic get's here on ST.

However, if cost is not an object, technology could determine drafting violations, record violations and be integrated with any timing mat.

It seems like we always end up with, "train some people to enforce the rule, simple as that". BamaIM was trying to explain what a referee goes through but, what he left out was the details of race morning. If the RD has appointed someone to recruit marshals, the volunteers drift in just before the swim start. Maybe the motorcycles are there or maybe they're "on the way". You have about fifteen minutes or so to give the "marshals" enough training to hope they comprehend the basic rules. They are usually confused and a little afraid. After you have done your best and ask for questions, you may hear, "when do we get our T-shirt?"

Can you remember what it was like the first time you saw a triathlon in person? Well multiply that by being on the back of an HD, ten feet away from a pack of ten or fifteen of these super-humans. The roar of the bike and the buzz of the peloton. I'm surprised they stay on the Hog.

I may exaggerate a bit, but not much. Some races are well staffed with motorcycles and some seasoned marshals. But, most RDs complain about paying the expenses of one or two referees. Can you imagine what they would say if we required ten or fifteen certified officials. And, this is what we are talking about when we say "get some trained officials to do the job".

When I was head of the program, I wanted only triathlete-referees. I still believe that a people-based system can work. But it has to be people who are comfortable with the sound and the fury. So, the finger points at the triathlete when searching for the only reasonable choice for marshal-material. If we would all give up just one race per year and serve as a trained marshal... As Pogo said, "we have met the enemy and he is us".

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Jim

Can't argue with the voice of experience. No one ever said being an RD was easy. It sure would be easier if more people would follow the rules.

"...most RDs complain about paying the expenses of one or two referees. Can you imagine what they would say if we required ten or fifteen certified officials. And, this is what we are talking about when we say "get some trained officials to do the job..".

I'm sure triathlons are run on tight financial margins -- but don't our fees pay for officiating? And that's an honest question -- not a rhetorical one.

That's a tough one. It's not that "officials" are not provided, they usually are out there. If I'm off-base, tell me. But I think you're asking if our entry fees guarantee us a fair and equitable enforcement of the rules...a question of quality. It does in most every other sport. But it evidently doesn't in ours. If you took our rule-compliance problem and applied it to any other sport, it would ruin most sports.

We all agree that we are not getting what we pay for, if you agree that our fee entitles us to proper rule enforcement. The question is, what do we do about it.

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Jim

"Megaphone.....please you can not be serious here.

You are going to sit here and tell me that I can scream at you with a megaphone " to please not draft"
so you can turn around and keep doing it. Wait, when I get pulled over for speeding by an police officer,
I do not get a warning. If I did, I will surely do it again."



To help you to understand the megaphone idea I will use your example:

If you hear the police siren behind you, you know you are up for something: A ticket or even worse (Maybe around here you hope to talk your way out of it, but if the officer does his job right he will not let you go)

Same on the bike. Calling the # means that you are busted. No warning. You heard it (maybe not if you ride with earphones) and you will KNOW that you are penalized.

I don't envy USAT officials who have to deal with several sets of rules (depending on what organization they happen to officiate for) and a large number of competitors who think they are entitled to special treatment.

I have officiated for my national federation at large events (1500 competitors) using the megaphone and a notebook and I had not even once to deal with a competitor who didn't get the message :-)

Because of the straightforward penalty process, our training was mainly focussed on assessing real drafting scenarios and how they presented themselves in a "staged" race.

I have not heard that USAT provides real world training before they are allowed to work at a race. To my knowledge they are trained "on the job". This would explain some of the problems competitors have with the officiating around here.

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adrialin

(BOMK, racing drug and supplement free since 1985)

Have more courses go over cobblestone streets............

Actually, I suggested a wireless "radar gun" yesterday... one that a marshall on the back of a motorcycle can point at the riders chip and have the chip register it's data contents with the gun, similar to how people share data between Palm Pilots. One motorcycle and ride up to a huge pack and pick each and every one off.

When the marshalls get back to the transition/race center, they can download the data off the guns to a PC.

so far a few good ideas. It is good to see some brainstorming going on, this is how we make things better.

<< Same on the bike. Calling the # means that you are busted. No warning. You heard it (maybe not if you ride with earphones) and you will KNOW that you are penalized.


I like this idea, when a person is busted, they are told on the spot. Then we just have to determine how to penalize them. I like the idea of a real time race, where when you cross the finish line, tht is your time and there are no further adjustments, but things like a penalty box might work for Ironman length races, but is it applicable for shorter race? It might be, in fact it might be even more of a real penalty as it has been shown that it isn't much of a penalty in and Ironman length race.

<< I don't envy USAT officials who have to deal with several sets of rules (depending on what organization they happen to officiate for)

USAT officials only officiate USAT sanctioned races, and there are only one set of rules for those races. WTC Ironman races and 70.3 races have their own rules and use their own officials, not USAT officials.

<< I have not heard that USAT provides real world training before they are allowed to work at a race. To my knowledge they are trained "on the job".

is that not one and the same? Real world training and on the job training? Not sure what you mean, but the process is that a potential official takes a one day classroom course, and then the following day serves an apprenticeship on the course at a race. Most officials clinics are held at races, the day before. Once they have done their race apprentiseship, they then submit their weritten test and if everyting checks out, they become a lower level official.

As some others have pointed out, it's not so much that the rules are wrong, there needs to be some tweaking, and I think the WTC rules need more tweaking, but it's in the actual enforcement of the rules. Having enough officials on the course, and training to them to make good judgement calls and be able to judge the intent more. Two problems here, first, the race director needs to bring in enough officials to cover their race adequately. It is an expense, but it's not expensive. For an Ironman distance race, officials get paid $100 for the whole day. If they have to travel to the race, they are paid mileage and a motel room. Local officials are used whenever possible. This is where having a larger pool of officials could really help as it would cut down on the travel expense for the RD in paying officials. We have many good officials. Anyone that has done a Charlie Crawford officiated race can't tell me that he isn't one of the most strict, and fair officials out there.

The second problem is the vocal majority. The people that complain the most in the past have been the one's that get caught, they complain to the RD and the RD is afraid of losing entrants. So in turn he doesn't want a strictly enforced race. Certainly there are many exceptions and a lot of RD's do want a strictly enforced race, but one particular group of RD's don't (not mentioning names). On this message board, it seems that the vocal majority here is against drafting and wants better officiating, but the sad truth is, a majority here is still a minority out in the ral world of our sport, even though this is probably one of the most widely read tri related message boards in the world.

<< We all agree that we are not getting what we pay for, if you agree that our fee entitles us to proper rule enforcement. The question is, what do we do about it.

tell the RD. If they had plenty of officials, tell them that you liked that and appreciated that their race was well officiated. If they didn't have enough officials, tell the RD that also. There are certain rules about how many officials should be at a race that has a championship designation, but for other races, it is up to the race director to make the request. There are guidelines and recommendations, but for the average sanctioned race, the RD makes the call on how many officials to actually request. If the race you did was sanctioned and didn't have officials, let the RD know that you won't come back until he gets officials, if that is the way you feel.

Until the people that want better officiating and more officials out on the course become the vocal majority, the RD's aren't going to do anything about it. In the meantime, we can still work to come up with a better, more universal set of rules that everyone can use.

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Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org

You know I was joking right?

jaretj

Mike. Very lucid. The problem is not the trained referees, it's the marshals. Everyone needs to understand the difference. In my opinion, if triathletes would volunteer to marshal, we'd see the rules enforced.

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Jim

Volunteer to marshal at a USAT race (and actually do it) -- get your USAT fees waived for the season. That'll be an incentive.

Great idea! Or, some serious discount coupons from sponsors. Some enterprising sports marketer could actually sponsor the triathlete-marshal program. Many possibilities.

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Jim