So, it sounds like you are just not getting as good of a "hold" on the water when using the buoy. Do you take more strokes per length with the buoy??? Also, if you use paddles with the buoy, does that get you closer to your pace without buoy and paddles??? This whole thing is kind of like a Sherlock Holmes mystery:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Great thread. Now I know why I suck at swimming. Now, how can I figure out how to make swimming fun?!?!?!?!?!

Gotta chime in and see if you any of you saw our brand new Swimisode : Freestyle head position - does this explain how much technique plays a part in performance and speed? http://www.theraceclub.com/...style-head-position/

quite possibly but still 10'/100 seems like a lot if it doesn't result in some extra resistance as well.

I feel like fixing that could result in a huge benefit even without the buoy.

yesterday I did quite a bit of band and band+buoy again in some time. especially with band+buoy I felt how much more I have to engage my core and how everything is a lot more one dimensional. by that I mean you can't really create much forces to the sides (which is obviously a good thing) and you are just going forward. also the rotation has to come from the hips and has to be better coordinated with the arms.
At one point I was overtaking someone while an other person came by in the other directions. his wake literately pushed me to the right by at least 15cm and there was nothing I could do (I even apologized afterwards to the person I was overtaking as it got quite close). even just not having my legs fixed (like buoy without band) would have allowed me to counterbalance and hold my line without a problem.
less side movements/balancing --> less resistance --> faster (as long as you can still apply the same propulsion obviously)

Trent not sure if that was rhetorical, but here goes. I felt like you at one point trust me. Well over 20 years of horrific swim performances, taking advice from triathletes who were just as clueless as I was and trying to 'feel' my way around what I didn't know I didn't know. Frustrating. Coming into my 5th year post-rebuild from my coach and I could not be interested in cycling or running any less. Swim and dry land training is all I do and I love it more every day. It can be fun....that's how it became fun for me:) If you have a good group to get with like Masters or a club team and dedicate several days a week to it the chances of you not being happy with the improvement are very slim in my experience....if you relent to their teaching and accept you don't know what you don't know. That can be really hard for a lot of folks......letting go and trusting a coach.

As a response to your initial post here is what I'm finding after swimming 10-12 times the past 3 months....down from ~ 25-30k a week over the spring/summer.

Top end speed is gone. Threshold pace stuff is pretty close to where it was, but I focus on sprint fly/free so not sure if this is a great litmus. I use USRPT training for the pool sprint events. So, at least in my case it seems my top end speed is inextricably linked to time in the pool, but my easier pace seems to be hanging in there for now.

Ok, I stand correted - I rechecked my PB vs nonPB times for 100yds in the pool yesterday afternoon. I'm slower with PB by about 3-4sec/100 for T-pace type effort; I had forgotten that we were doing 200s in the masters group, so the gap seemed closer to 10 sec.

Still, the reality was still that with PB sets, the people in the next faster lane were absolutely killing me. And I know it's not just me being so bad with the PB, because in the last 200 of the PB set, I ditched the PB because I was so frustrated seeing the folks in my lane and the next fastest lane get so much speed on me, be even without the PB (I'm faster without it), I was just keeping pace with the slowest person in the next fastest lane.

However, once we , once we went to the next set of no-PB 3 x 200s, I was moved up a lane after the first set by the coach and ended up leading that entire faster lane, as well as and finishing it with a significant gap on the person behind me on the last one.

So even if I'm not super slow with a PB, I'm still surprised with how fast everyone else became once they started using the PB, in that folks who I was gapping by nearly an entire length in a 200, were suddenly at my pace if they used a PB and I didn't.

That makes more sense. I'm pretty much the same, in that I am about 3-4 s/100 slower with the PB. but I also get drive from the kick, which you don't do. . I suspect that you are kicking more than you think to keep your legs up, which is why you slow down with the PB and really slow down with the band..

I think it would be interesting to see what happens if you use an oversized PB or use 2 at a time.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

ok so I haven't read any other replies on this thread, but you may find this post of mine useful.

To sum it up, I did a big swim block last december which set me up for a good improvement. I went from a 1:06 IM swim time to a 59 min most recently at IMAZ. Even though 7 minutes does not sound like a lot in the greater scheme of a long day, it actually makes a big difference:

1. there is significantly less contact, therefore less energy wasted on fighting people
2. getting out of the water early puts you in a much better position on the bike. Especially important if you have "pointy end aspirations" such as KQ.

For me, I've observed the following:
- 10K per week helps me maintain reasonable swim shape
- 15K per week is the minimum I need to get ready for a race
- 25+K per week is what I need to make gains

So, before a big race I just do 2-3 weeks of 25K+ and that gets me ready. I do that right up until race week, only with 2 days of rest before the race. I'm sure I would gain more by spending more weeks at high volume, but that might gain me another 60-90 seconds at most. So for me, that's where I draw the line and spend extra time on biking or running.

As for technique, you should be focused on that in every workout. "focusing on technique" does not mean swim slowly. It means focus on technique all the time. Personally, I don't do a lot of drills. I see too many triathletes doing drills all the time and never actually swimming hard. I just focus on the basics: wide hand entry, pull strongly with the lats, high elbow, horizontal position (no leg sinking), and be conscious of catching a lot of water and streamlining.

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I actually get SLOWER with an oversized PB or two PBs! I really don't kick to keep my legs up - kicking is really exhausting for me. I wonder if it's the added drag from the pull buoys as well, but I still think more of it is the flatter body position which probably decreases my stroke power somewhat.

7 min improvement in an IM swim is a massive improvement, and you're talking about 7mins on an already good IM swim time, not a beginner with low-hanging fruit!

Thank you for the response. I found a Master's class by my new office downtown. I may give it a whirl. I have an excuse to beat the traffic! For me, I think you are correct. In the summer I was enjoying swimming more when my times started to drop. Lately, I haven't been swimming as much and without as much focus. My run and bike times have been steadily dropping, but my swim has improved very little over the year. That is with lessons and specific coach plans. I guess swimming takes more time to develop for adults and you just have to pay your dues with time in the pool. It sounds crazy to me that people swim 30k a week. I can not imagine that at this stage in my life. If I enjoyed it more it probably wouldn't be a burden. For instance, if you said go ride your bike 20 hours this week I would jump in the air with glee! But go swim 6 hours… Holy Shit, you think I am Superman? ;) I realize it is a mindset just as much as anything.

i said "more than you think" because I find that most people have a small kick even when they think they don't, unless you really know what your body is doing in the water and make an effort to NOT kick. that light kick is really a byproduct or initiator of rotation in those cases. the pullbuoy and band both eliminate that natural movement, which probably contributes to that swimming flatter that you feel.

I still think video would be useful for you to see what is happening...

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

For sure it's a mindset, but I'm warning you now. If you get a taste of swimming well you will want more. 30k's was not fun to me b/c I was attempting to squeeze it into a week filled with travel and catching up while home. Next year if all goes as planned I hope to be doing 30k a week at the very least and can hardly wait to get back into good swim shape! The only thing that will hold me back from doing more in the pool is if my body starts breaking down....but that's one of the beauties of swimming for me. I can torture myself in the water and my body doesn't seem to hate me.

as a masters swimmer, 30k / week is at the high end of the spectrum (unless you're ericmulk, then I think that counts as a non-swimmign week). there is one woman in our club who regularly does over 100K / month, but must of us are anywhere between 20 and 50k. I've been at about 75-85, that's been enough for me to drop my 200 free SCM time from 2:21 in April to a 2:11 last weekend... Just make sure you aren't wasting too much time in the pool, always try to swim with good form while simultaneously busting your ass...

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Thank you and Tigerpaws for the replies. And wow, that is a fast time. In retrospect of this past year, I think some of my aggravation comes down to this. I dropped over an hour off my standalone marathon time in one year (4:24 to a 3:16 this past weekend in Vegas). And honestly I think I only ran over 30 miles per week twice all year. But, I only dropped two minutes off my 1.2 mile swim time over the past year. I hit a few 15K weeks during the peak but probably average around 10K a week. It has been a wonderful journey so I am not conplaining. Triarhlon has really helped me become a new person. It just makes me a little aggrevated being the last one out of the water and not seeing that much improvement compared to the other two disciplines. I plan to hit it hard this December and January and get lessons and probably even a masters class, so I am confident I should see some gains by race season next year. Thank you for the guidance.

Phew! This makes waaaaay more sense to me now. ~:03/100 is normal. I am about the same. Just means you have better body position and/or kick without the buoy than they do. So they get more "help" with the buoy in correcting body position. Kinda like wetsuits. I do not get as much gain from them as someone who swims non-wetsuit slower than me. That is why I prefer non-wetsuit swims. I can get more time on the field. On the flip side of that coin, means your pull/catch/elbows/roll/something in the upper body is probably weaker/less efficient than theirs if they are beating you to the point of frustration when you go to the buoy. Ditching the buoy is NOT what you need to do but without video or seeing it in person can't diagnose it on the web. Can only cast a large net in hopes of fixing the issue via internet.

I am a fan of dry land swim specific workouts, stretch cords, paddles, and drag suits. That's just me though.

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Formerly TriBrad02

yea Jason is um, not slow. those times make my lungs ache.

one parting shot....and it sounds as if you already have a level head and great attitude. like many things in life it's a lot about how your approach it. swim gains come huge at first, but as you know with swimming you cannot escape the physics of it: the faster you go the harder it is to go faster. this can wear on the brain when you work SO hard for a couple of months and only see a few seconds come off your 100 pace.....this is the sick twisted game that is swimming fast. just learn to enjoy the process and it will sink in! have fun! maybe you are at a 1:50 pace. then you jump to 1:40. then another 10 seconds to 1:30....just don't expect those chunks to be coming like that forever. at some point those 10's become 2's. enjoy!

No and no.

As Jason pointed out, I bet you kick more than you think. It sounds like your natural kick beat might be higher rate than others. This is a good thing! Everyone gets tired on kicking though. If they don't, they didn't do it right.

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Formerly TriBrad02

Thanks, but I don't consider myself to be all that fast. lots of guys on this forum are faster than me...

I do know what I'm doing though, more or less....

and at some point the 2's become 1's, then 0.5's then 0.1's....

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

2:11 SCM is nothing to sneeze at. And how old are you again? Oh, I want my free Costco sampler! =)

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Formerly TriBrad02

Appreciate the input, but i definitely use a two-beat kick (I trained myself to minimize kicking, took awhile!) There is no 4-6 beat kick going on, and there is almost no propulsion from that kick - if I do that same 2 beat kick without pulling, I go literally nowhere and pretty much stay in place. (I can move forward with a kickboard on a kick set, but that's a style of kicking that I never use with the 2-beat kick.)

it's in the mail....

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Not that fast?!?!?

You must be a young whippersnapper then. In my AG last year a 2:11 would have put you down for the 10th fastest 200 scm....in the entire US Masters meet database for the year 45-49. I'd love to get as 'slow' as you someday;)

You have now baffled me yet again. Regardless, I can not think of any instance a flatter body position has ever resulted in decreasing power/speed. You engage bigger, stronger muscles (lats) when flatter and obviously reduce drag.

Oh, might want to un-train your minimal kick. Yes, even as a distance swimmer/triathlete train it. It will help your engine. ;-)

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Formerly TriBrad02