Your comment hit close to home because I have an athlete that's going to be racing St.Anthony's this weekend (so probably same general area swim body area). She's an olderish woman (mid 50's) who's doing her 2nd ow race ever. We've talked a lot about sighting, being comfortable, what to do when you freak out (really worked a lot on rolling to her back and catching her breath). The past 2 weeks at our masters swim practice I lead, I've taken out all the lane lines and put in swim boys to work on ows skills. The last week we did the session, I told them I was going to be really aggressive with them in the water (grabbing feet, holding arm, pushing them down), and they said that they felt so much better now with understanding what can happen. I even got a black eye out of it from one of my athlete's elbow, but all in a day's work for preparing your athletes.

The note on making sure you don't put on the full suit too early, I'm going to make sure she and my other athletes really have that in their race prep. I cant say for certain if I have actually told them when to put the wetsuit on, so for that nugget of info., thank you.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

i have a list of over 1000 race directors. i have made the offer to write them up a series of swim safety tips, and give it to them for free, to email out. 1 of them took me up on the offer.

but i don't want to beat these people up. they're my heroes. they make a sport for us. if there were a concerted push to get them to preach on 2 things to their registrants - preach on swim safety, preach on the basic rules while on the bike - that would be great. but as we'll see in a story i'm preparing as a "state of the sport" series entry here on slowtwitch, the institutions that we trust to move us forward have not been lean-forward in their approaches to this. we're still largely leaderless as a sport, with all the RDs doing the best they can mostly just off their own intuition and OJT.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"I told them I was going to be really aggressive with them in the water (grabbing feet, holding arm, pushing them down" <= THIS

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

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I know people are just trying to do helpful things ..... but if we need to have some sort of navy seal drownproofing exercises for someone to successfully complete a triathlon open water swim, we probably need to cancel the swim thing.
Swimming in a pool is not at all like an open water swim ..... so why not practice as a group in open water to get the feel of swimming close to lots of others and learn how to seed yourself properly at a swim start. Its always been amazing to me how experienced triathlon open water swimmers can swim as a large pack without hardly touching each other for the whole 2.4 swim ...... so long as the water is clear and you can see . This really just isn't that hard a skill set to be learned .... but it can't be learned in a pool.

Dave

In the North East, practicing OWS before the first races of the year isn't always an option, so the drills that Brooks describes are the best option available. We do the same thing, intentionally making contact and generally harassing the swimmers to help prepare for racing.

No, this shouldn't really be necessary, because there should probably be much less contact during races than there is, but it's a reality of the sport in most races. Prepare for the worst. Hope for the best.

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Don Larkin
Reach For More
http://www.reachformore.fit/
USAT Lvl1 Coach, NSCA-CPT, NASM-CPT, BS Exercise Science

Here's the thing though. My #1 promise for every athlete is for them to know that when they show up on race day, they know they are as prepared as anything. So no it's not just about being helpful, it's about being prepared. So while no a pool swim cant replace OWS stuff, what it can do is help an athlete prepare. That includes swimming 25's eyes closed and only sighting in the 3rd breath, that includes swimming with swim boys wihtout lane lines. ETA: That includes putting 5 people in one lane and doing swim starts, getting people comfort in uncomfortable situations. That's the goal of this. It's to get people to understand what it can feel like and to adjust accordingly. One thing I always did was pull on people in the deep end, so they cant just stand up. Some struggled and had to roll over to their back, others were able to just take 2 breaths quickly to get back into the flow.

Now for my group, I cant get them all together to get adequate open water prep work, so the next best thing is what I have them doing. I do suggest some local OWS groups that do this activity every weekend from April-Oct.

So I will disagree with you, because you arent doing good enough skill work in the pool if you dont think you can improve OWS skills in the pool. I'll stand by that statement. It doesnt replace it, but it certainly can be used and effective training method.

ETA: I guess when Dan sorta called out the approach some RD's took, I sorta took it as a wake up call just for my own athletes. The best thing I love about being a coach is being challenged and having to confirm why I do things a certain way. I always fear/chuckle at the coach that wont talk to you just about coaching philosophies ideas or hide behind "secrets". That kind of stuff sends red flags up with me.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Dan: I understand and respect your opinions on "binary choice" and how how you treat life's problems.

But please consider this: RD's are mainly independents, except for WTC, so are coaches, athletes, magazines, manufacturers, etc. There are two giant gorillas in the space: WTC and USAT. One has taken a very pro-active position, the other has done little. In fact, USAT's abysmally weak position on water temperature collars sets their tone on safety from my perspective.

Both of these entities can move mountains quickly. Start with the gorillas. They can set the tone, help provide and disseminate the necessary education, and encourage or even force its implementation. That's the bulls-eye. The others, RD's etc are rings around the center. But collectively, we can ALL help improve upon this grave situation in triathlon swims.

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Gerry Rodrigues
http://www.tower26.com
twitter: @tower_26
FB: Tower 26

Gerry,

I'd be very interested in your thoughts about the new water temperature recommendations and enhanced RD post-race reporting requirements about the tri swims for 2014.

As you know, all of the relevant open water governing bodies have struggled with this issue in recent years. There's no consensus. Age-group triathlon is rather different from the other sorts of open water events.

The Relevant USAT Task Force will be meeting at the end of the season to evaluate the success of the new recommendations.

Larry

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Larry Creswell
http://www.athletesheart.org, @athletesheart

Where can these recommendations be found? The air temp - in particular because people put their wetsuit and swim cap on so early - should definitely be a factor in determining wetsuit usage.

Is there any specific protocol on how to administer an AED when the patient has the episode in the water and with a wetsuit on? It seems the protocol is to get the patient on land and then administer the AED like any other patient. Thinking this over, if you have an AED at a race and you don't have a pair of scissors to cut the wetsuit you are predictively risking 10-30 seconds.

Link to 2014 USAT water temp guidelines:

http://www.usatriathlon.org/.../swim-and-water.aspx

Recommendations do not involve air temp. Post-race reporting on air temp is required, though, for 2014.

AHA recommends drying victim or moving to dry location to use AED. AED pads must be placed directly on skin, so wetsuit or tri-top would need to be removed.
.

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Larry Creswell
http://www.athletesheart.org, @athletesheart

This is misleading. A TT start is no safer than a wave start. I did IM Lou in 2011 and a poor guy died not far behind me during the "safer" TT start. I think the problem has more to do with folks not warming up beforehand, going from vertical to horizontal, from a standstill to a high intensity. I rarely see people warming up in the water at races (if RDs even allow it). In the case of Louisville, you can be standing in line for 2+ hours before suddenly plunging in the water and jacking your HR up instantly. I wonder how many people have had cardiac issues/death during the swim leg of a REVERSE sprint tri where the swim is preceded by a lengthy run/bike warmup?

My condolences to the family of the athlete who died in Florida.

Dang, so sad yo hear this news. Prayers to the family.

Quote:

A TT start is no safer than a wave start

I'm not sure how you're coming to that conclusion. The wave start is where most of the early clubbings take place. It is likely though that these incidents are close to the race start, providing the athletes the best shot of recovering or bailing. Getting clubbed out at a deep-water turn buoy isn't affected by the start as much; other than the assumption that the field will be further thinned by the TT start.

I worry that if swim deaths continue to appear in the tri news, that it will shrink the sport due to fear. I think TT starts are a step in the right direction. In addition, maybe some sorting of start order based on previous swim times - similarly to the scoring method used for our USAT rankings but swim specific. That is probably a better method of dividing up the swimmers by speed to reduce the swim-over incidents.

It depends on what you mean by safer. A TT start will always alleviate large group of athletes, and leave basically a long stream of athletes either leap frogging each other, or just swimming around small group of athletes (like 1-2 athletes). A true TT start shouldn't have people standing in line for 2 hours. It should be basically pre planned to essentially have a long stream of athletes one by one from the start to the finish. That way there should rarely be a clump of athletes anywhere on the course. You would know your start time and then adjust according, then line up 8-10 mins before the start.

IM L'ville is a bad example of TT starts because it's pretty stupid to do it first come first serve. But that's WTC's call.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

"A TT start is no safer than a wave start."

it isn't simply an issue of the swimmers themselves and their interactions with each other. it's also about how to get a watercraft to a swimmer in distress. you can't drive a lifeguard boat or a jet ski, or even a paddleboard - across a half-dozen swimmers to get to one swimmer in distress.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

After reading all the posts, good, bad, speculative; I felt I needed to post a message. Cary (Donald) Bautel is my father and we were competing in this event together. I have competed in many triathlons, half marathons and marathons all over the United States and am no stranger to the training and stamina needed for an event like this one. My dad has watched me compete in numerous events throughout the years. I have always talked about competing in fort desoto and last year 2013 I did. Both my mom and dad were there to watch. I loved it and decided I was surely coming back next year. Then a huge surprise, my dad said he was really inspired by all the athletes at the race and really wants to participate in it with me for 2014. I never hesitated to even think he would not have the strength and determination to do this. A little history of my dad; he spent his early years in Australia later moving to michigan with family in Florida which he visited every year. He was always active big time diver and scuba diver (loved the water), coached my softball, was on a basketball league when he was younger, kayaker, adventure traveler... The list goes on. He was always up for a challenge. And lived his life to the fullest and was the happiest man I new. So now getting to the tri. I really helped to coach my dad, he had his weekly training schedule that he was doing ( I was in the meantime slacking off in nj so he was in better training shape than me) I helped him with his gear and answered any questions that I could, it was a real bonding experience for us. He was trained, his swim was his strongest leg of the race. On a side note my parents stay in Florida every year from February to April so he had nice weather for the last part of his training (he did not travel to Florida for the triathlon as the paper had said). The morning of the race we headed out to fort desoto fully expecting to be eating a hot dog together and drinking a beer after the event. I even had medals made for us as a special token of how proud I was of him ( since tris do not usually give any... And god damn it's nice to get one). We got our bikes racked and headed to swim start. The wind was cold but water was nice. I was in the pink caps group so I was a few groups before him in the water. I remember my mom dad and their friends waving to me as a left into the water. I was 3/4 done with the bike when the ambulance went by. My heart sank to know anyone may have had an accident. I kept waiting to see my dad pass me opposite direction on bike as it was an out and back. I never saw him but thought maybe I just wasn't paying attention. As I rounded the corner to make it back into transition for the run portion I heard my name being called a race volunteer was calling me off the course. I was confused. They said your dad had an accident we need to get your stuff. That was a chaotic blur of getting my stuff, getting his stuff, packing car, talking to med support and race officials ( all of which had a solemn look on their face) my mom said she new he was gone, they would not let her ride in ambulance to the hospital. We got in our cars and raced to hospital. It was all so confusing with the deputy, race officials, drs on scene and at hospital. We are still trying to get information and put pieces together. The medical examiner said the autopsy revealed an enlarged heart and that he had a heart attack and died instantly in the water ( I hope he did not suffer). Our family and friends are devastated. He had so much more life to live and being at my house now with my mom and sister and looking at all his stuff( he was huge tech geek) we are hands in the air. I hope this helps to answer some questions and gives you some background on our lives so you can not make so many speculations. I have his race number and timing chip which they gave me at the er in the bag of his belongings. I will finish the race in his honor organizing a group to do the 10 mile bike and 3.4 mike run. He was so proud of his bike and never got to use it. Bib number 622 will finish his race. I love you dad.

aw man that is awesome your going to finish the race with his bib and his bike. My sincere condolences to you and your family and friends and may your father RIP

Thank you for coming on here to give us your story. Finish the race well!

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The secret of a long life is you try not to shorten it.
-Nobody

I send my deepest condolences.

Hi Larry,
I am the daughter of Cary bautel and was also participating in the event for the 2nd year. I posted a long comment earlier regarding some more details. I agree with you though I really think that you need to assess your situation before you start. My dad was a fast and furious type of man that felt invincible and slow was not in his vocabulary. Athletes need to slow down assess their "personal" situation and stay smart. I have learned a lot from this event. I a men rolling in CPR classes immediately when I return to nj from the funeral. I don't know what I would have done if he would have had cardiac issues under my watch.

Does anyone think "physicals" like youth used to have to do to play HS sports will be in affect at some point?

I almost feel like it should be a requirement, but the cost and/or idea that that may drive some customers away, will keep it from not being implemented?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

So sorry for your loss.

Please accept my deepest condolences on the loss of your father, and my thanks for adding the details to this thread. With few exceptions, I believe the post race discussions after a swim fatality are helpful in advancing the dialogue on how to make the sport safer by developing protocols for RDs or at least giving athletes ideas on how to prepare, what precautions to take, and maybe, when to step back. Meanwhile, my prayers go out to your family. It's obvious from your post that your father had a profound influence on your life. Finishing the race for him is a great idea in coming to resolution, and I wish your family the best as you continue your lives.

So sorry for your loss. Our thoughts and prayers are with your family. It must be a terrible time for you and I hope you can continue the hold the good memories of your father.
Mark