Some good points but you're off the mark. using MJ and Phelps when comparing to triathletes isn't a fair comparison, people who've made millions versus people who after taxes are probably making 20-40k. You would be surprised how many "pros" are not paying their coaches. The coaches take on "pros" at no charge because 1) Pros can't afford to pay their coaches 2) The coaches care about their struggling athletes who are dealing with a poor financial situation and when they are helping this pro at no charge, the pro helps grow the coach's own education, credibility and visibility in hopes of growing his age group athlete roster.

If an athlete fresh out of college who's run under 15:00 for 5k and can swim decent with minimal training approaches me to coach them but are obviously in huge college debt... you would bet i'd coach that kid for free.

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Inside The Big Ring: Podcast & Coaching

I can tell you that as someone who swam for TeamElite (i.e. Coach David Marsh) I had to pay a lot of money. Now, granted there was a sliding scale of fee, and the ability to work off the fee, because it was connected to an age group swim team at the time, but there was a charge nonetheless. North Baltimore charged a boatload to swim with Michael and Bob while they were there, though Michael was a part owner of the team and pool for a time, so I'm not sure what his personal arrangement was with Bob.

That athletes shouldn't have to pay for coaching because they're elite is absurd. Some NGB's have grant programs for elite athletes to pay coaching fees, or athletes can pass through some of their stipend to pay, but coach for free? Unless there's some joint sponsorship deal or something, how is a coach supposed to make their livelihood?

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I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html

Thanks for the clarification.


I come from a bike racing only background, and I was never a pro, only amateur and I got free coaching, race fee reimbursement and a big equipment discount, I get the idea of paying for coaching, I guess the way the OP phrased his post was confusing to me, again I am not coming from a tri background, I was just confused as to why a coach would even limit his clients by making them apply and select a few, unless he is a famous coach and can pick and choose his clientele. (Maybe he is, I am new here).

Your analogy to a NFL QB paying for coaching isn't the same, if would be like an NFL team asking for players to apply and pay to be on their "squad".

Anyway I appreciate the clarification and didn't mean to shed negativity, I was simply inquiring...

I don't remember saying that elite athletes shouldn't have to pay for coaching....

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Inside The Big Ring: Podcast & Coaching

Sorry - replied to the last post not you specifically. There were those earlier in the thread who seemed to have that sentiment.

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I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html

OK. I thought I was just rephrasing your own words by calling it a coaching service. When you said that it was a group of people who happen to work out daily in the same area that's what you were saying. But I can accept that it's more intensive.


Yeah, but back to bike teams. They're never on TV. But the local low-level pros get all their equipment, coaching, team car or two, and a bit of cash. And that's even the lowest level of pro team, those that maybe aren't even registered as UCI domestic. I'm not sure I buy that it's all about "TV" but the model itself.

I agree. All sorts of problems. But it still looks good to me compared to the triathlon model.

Yeah, but back to bike teams

—�—
Can you give me examples that aren’t bike teams?

You are a bike racer....how many races you do have a cash prize?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

All I have to do is look at a guy like Jason West. That kid works his butt off, gets results, and is still under the $30k mark.

That's just the thing. I'm a masters bike racer. Not even a super good one. And I still regularly score cash for placement. Not a lot of cash, but enough to at least cover the race expenses. I think the most I got was about $600 for winning a stage race, and I've gotten $50-150 for crits. And these are regional races that probably few here have heard of. I feel almost embarrassed taking the money. And since bike racers easily race 20-30 times per year, if you're placing regularly you're bringing in some money. I'm at least cash-positive in terms of entry fees, gas money, and lodging. And I'm not in the same zipcode as someone truly "elite." But last year I compared my total take to a ranked list of Ironman-branded race winnings that was posted here somewhere, and I was making more than some pro triathletes who could probably ride circles around me with one leg. (just in race winnings, but still..)

And that's just race winnings. I'm not nearly good enough to get a top level deal, but I do know masters who get fully free bikes and all their kit. Even I get free lodging. In geezer racing.

As far as teams that aren't bike team, yes. My other sport was rowing. And rowing, you usually had to pay to be part of an "elite/development" squad unless you were good enough to make a national team. But rowing (at least when I was in it) was nearly absent the "industrial complex" that is triathlon. Your rowing kit has your rowing club's insignia on it. That's it. Your rowing shell might have been sponsored by a local company, but often not even that.

I guess my point is that triathlon is surrounded by this raging cyclone of the triathlon industrial complex, Bikes, brain-altering-headphones, wetsuit companies that people go bananas over, 3-4 figure entry fees, races being quasi vacations. Everything is branded and marketed to the nth degree.

I guess my point is that the sport in general seems to do a poor job of extracting wealth for elite/junior development purposes from that industrial complex.

I think bike teams maybe just drive a harder bargain? "No, you're not putting your logo on our jersey without paying 5 figures." "No, we're not riding your bikes unless you give us a free lease on 20 bikes for the year."

I have no idea how or why they drive a harder bargain. It just seems that way to me that in triathlon the "industrial complex" has the upper hand on grassroots elite racers. By a damned sight.

Edit: And I really, really don't intend to sound any Jim Vance here. I'm absolutely not. I know some of his former juniors whose lives were changed through the sport. My point is that I feel he should have a near-six-figure salary and a sweet team Mercedes sprinter van himself through sponsorship and should have a budget to offer 20 athletes a $10K stipend and a free bike to come train in San Diego. In a perfect world. I'm just confused at the sport in general.

So the point I made earlier with my go talk to your local TV and then again asking you about bike races with cash prizes; and your response was validating my point it even more. Your in a sport that has cash flow. ALL your top races get big race day TV/media coverage. Hell even Tour of Cali and whatever race it is now in Colorado gets lots of coverage. That all trickles down in everything. And then you setup a racing system that you are 90% of the time racing for cash prizes, and so it makes a TON of sense for local sponsors to sponsor teams/bike shops to give away heavy discounted bike/race entries, etc.

I think the problem is that there is no wealth to extract. The wealth it currently extracts is from AG participation, and that's pretty much maxed out with how to move money to elites/junior development. So again, it was why I told you to go talk to your local TV station about getting the sport on tv.

Ever notice in the past few years at Kona, the IM used to have sponsors like Ford, and other non-tri related products. Notice how few of those companies are in the sport now?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Every race I've done after getting out of cat5 had cash prizes and usually swag as well. I won a cat3 state championship crit and got $250 I believe, that was the most I ever won.

Paying for expert level coaching is common in the cycling world too. A great coach gives you the tools to succeed. Tri, with its many aspects, obviously can benefit serious racers with expert coaching. And given that actual good coaches are pretty rare (being fast doesn't make you a good coach, sometimes it does the opposite), they would be dumb not to charge their clients. If you spend $250 on a aero helmet or $8000 on a super bike, you may be able to make similar gains from a expert coach.

That said, the OP was couched in terms of "starting a team", and try outs and stuff like that. Legit confusing at first.

Wow, what gives with the mob mentality on this board?!

You must be new around here...

Ahh, OK I get it. Now you are selling. No disrespect but please move to classifieds and or coaching.

Feel free to not read the thread, and not apply.

X 2.

I think Slowman must have changed his screen name to Mauricemaher without telling us...

Way to derail this thread people. Jim isn't looking for ironbrand athlete ... All working on the sponsorship game. He is hoping some of those athletes and you folks can recommend hidden talent to join , I had opportunity to home stay one of them who is a sub 14 minute 5k'er. There are many great athletes out there undiscovered who don't use social media at all. This is kind of like the USAt project with Gwen Jorgensen, let's run forum, etc. To build a good group for next Olympic run

Been here plenty long. Just pointing out that it is ridiculous.

Cycling business model the past 10 years or so:
- #1 Team in the world TEAM HIGH ROAD then Team Columbia closes because of no sponsors
- Spain's #1 team gets last minute save via Movistar sponsor to keep going
- France #1 team nearly dies but to be saved last minute by Eureocar
- Team Pegasus (following year became Greenedge then Orica) and Team Panasonic both complete frauds. Never was a sponsor despite holding new rider signings
- USA #1 team dies then gets lifeline last minute despite finishing on the Tour podium 2017

these are off top of my head.

At least in triathlon pro's can be their own CEO and not a threat of having a contract that isn't worth salt if team collapses.

now yes cycling is a $100s of Millions business. Triathlon? take away quite a few zero's so the CEO of self is not making much unless winning Kona or Olympics.

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@rhyspencer

Fair enough,

I apologize to Jim and wish him the best in his new endeavour.

Cheers,

The only tri squad I've been a part of is BTC Elite in Boulder. It's a small team of only about 10 guys. There is no fee to be on the team. There are excellent sponsorship deals, much better than any team I have heard of. Better than the bottom half of pros. Some kit is provided free. Some had to be purchased.

There is some coaching provided, particularly during team workouts, but the team director, who is a coach, is not the full-time coach of all the athletes. Some have other coaches. Some have no coach. Some, like me have him as our full-time coach for which he is paid but it is a separate deal from being on the team.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Goals of this group are different. It isn't about securing a "bro deal".

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Jim Vance
http://TodaysPlan.com.au (Disclosure: I am contracted with Today's Plan)
http://www.CoachVance.com/
Twitter @jimvance

That's not our goal either. The goal is to promote more of a community atmosphere and involvement in the local tri scene, as well as greater participation from the faster guys in local racing and get some fun and tight competition in races that are not just the "big" ones. But we like to race the big ones too.

No need for derogatory statements.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Yeah, cycling has all kinds of problems. I'm focussed on the specific issue of how aspiring elite athletes navigate from being a fast amateur up the ranks to increasing pro status. For cycling there's a clear path, where young, promising Cat 1 (in the U.S.) get support in things like equipment, coaching, race entries, even a little cash. There doesn't seem to be such structure in triathlon.. Everyone is their "own CEO." Which is great for some. Not for those without any established "brand."

I'm absolutely not using cycling in general as some ideal.

Wasn't meant to be derogatory. You didn't mention the community aspect in your post, you spoke about the sponsorship deals, and cost.

I stand by what I said, the goals are different. This isn't a group designed to do the local race scene, or build the local tri community. It's about high performance, at the biggest and most important races in the world.

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Jim Vance
http://TodaysPlan.com.au (Disclosure: I am contracted with Today's Plan)
http://www.CoachVance.com/
Twitter @jimvance

tough crowd...

just an observation: keep your webpage up to date and insist your athletes do the same.