There are different rules for the Pros and AG today, so is no real change.



Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Remember its 7m tip to tip, so more like 5m between bikes. There must be some draft, otherwise it would be a pretty amazing coincidence that 6 guys would have identical bike splits and all finish together.


...and Faris knows this as well. That probably counts for a big part of his frustration and statements after the race. Even with all the group in legal position he was doing a lot more work and the others pretty much refused to share. The Germans have always pushed the bike, and usually as a group. Zach and Hellrieigel would wait for each other before chasing the leaders, not to draft, but to push each other to go harder. Leder, Muller, Zach, Hellreigel, and the other German IM stars liked to be in a pack and challenge each other to take the pace higher and higher. Once the rest of the field was dispatched, the stonger of the bunch would make a break for it. Those guys usually tried to crush everyone else before dropping each other. If Faris could have stayed with Normann they would have really torn up the old record. As it was, Normann had only himself to push the limits, but he knew that that was his only chance for victory.

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"that which does not destroy me will only make me stronger" Frederick Nietzsche
andrew peabody
http://BREAKAWAYMULTISPORT.COM

[reply]German IM stars liked to be in a pack and challenge each other to take the pace higher and higher[/reply]

By passing eachother, during which there is a huge (legal) drafting effect. If you rotate through regularly, it's a giant paceline. Sounds like nobody wanted to pull through and give Faris a break. So in that sense, the other guys did "cheat" (as in, game the system), because they only did half of the "legal drafting" procedure, the sitting in part, not the taking a pull part. One benefit of 10 meters might be to make it a little harder to set up and manage the paceline, since everyone would have to work a bit harder for a bit longer on the way to the front, and/or would be working a little bit harder if they chose to sit in. I'd love to watch the pros race with a 20-30 meter draft zone with some sort of rule structure to inhibit repeated passing.

"Not to draft?" !!! They would trade the lead and rotate through. In fact, Macca joined them his first year at Kona and I didn't hear any of them complain about him drafting! They liked having another guy to help pull. Now that he's not helping pull them to the finish, they're acting all high and mighty. Of course they were drafting!

Not that there's anything wrong with that...it's legal, after all. IM is not "non drafting", it's "limited drafting." You just don't have a 2000+ person head-to-head race and pretend it's non-drafting. This is exactly why the Olympics refused to allow non-drafting triathlon. There is no such thing at the elite level.

Perhaps a more sensible idea would be to design a course that includes significant climbs spaced around the course. I would hate it (being more of a flatland/aero rider), but the world championships ought to be designed to reward the strongest and fittest athletes. A course like the Cali Half or Lake Placid or Lanzarote would be better than the Kona course.

I wonder if in fact, Cam's HR is unusually low across the board.

I remember Gordo talking about riding with Cam in Boulder a few years ago. Gordo was working hard to ride with Cam and Cam's HR on the bike was something like 110.

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Justin in Austin, get it? :)

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I think you're forgetting that the drafting zone is tabular and only extends 1m on each side of the bike (at least for USAT events), this leaves plenty of side-by-side space for riding in the no-draft zone. The USAT rules do actually have a 10m rule, but applies to following distance if not staggered, I assume the rules governing an IM are different?

(e) Staggered Positioning. All cyclists must assume and maintain a staggered riding position relative to the

cyclist directly ahead; no cyclist may maintain a position on the course directly in line with a cyclist directly

ahead. This staggered position must be maintained even if the cyclist is outside of the drafting zone and

following at a distance of greater than ten (10) meters.

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some days you're the windshield some days the bug

Yes, the IM (WTC) folks have their own rules. They tried the stagger one year and it was a mess.

This rule is for USAT events and is for pros only. I got stuck having to ask the question about passing pros on the right at a race last year. This rules allows pros to ride on the left side of the lane, but AGers are supposed to only overtake on the left. Except when passing a pro I found out :)

And yes, I did pass many pros on the bike. They only had a 5 minute head start.

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Reverend Dr. Jay
Lake of the Pines Triathlon fastest bike course record holder - Golden State Super Sprint fastest tri course record holder - Wildflower Long Course slowest run course record holder (4:46:32)

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"If you have a body, you are an athlete." -Bill Bowerman

You can also add The Sergio's power data into the mix. The Sergio has a good position, on a good bike, with good equipment, and rode 254watts (measured on an Ergomo that was calibrated with an SRM) to go 4:50 riding solo. That is roughly 10 watts less than Luke Bell rode to go 20 minutes faster. TWENTY MINUTES.

This shows not only the effect of being in "a" pack, but also the effect of being in "THE" pack, with all the media vehicles around. The media frenzy is another issue for another day, as I'd be happy just to get to 10m back-to-front. But clearly there are a ton of issues that need to be addressed...

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

it defintely needs to be a 10m draft zone. heres some more data to add fuel to the fire.
Mitch Anderson who had a pretty bad swim rode 4:31 without that group, his 5'10 and about 70-72kgs, and he averaged 290 watts. significantly higher than the numbers we've seen from the 4:29 club. its a pitty we dont get numbers from staddler.

I would imagine that probably has more to do with the lack of media vehicles than riding solo, since there are no reports of a rotating paceline. Faris's watts are what you would expect from someone leading that group consistently, but benefitting from media vehicles.

I would imagine Stadler's numbers are lower than you might expect for similar reasons. There were some reports tossed around here that said at one point, with cameras on him, he was able to sit-up and eat a gu without really slowing down because of the vehicle peloton around him. That being said, I'm not sure Stadler gained any more of an advantage than the first chase pack with Faris et al., who also got a great deal of media attention.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

They've updated the info at the 2peaks.de site. Luke Bell's average was a bit higher than that. Also don't forget about the media vehicules around the top athletes and attractive women that are top athletes ;-)

Bottom line here is that it pays to be upfront and that is all part of the game.

all part of the game

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Sadly true in the age group ranks as well.

One more data point... 239 watts, a good aero fit, 76 kg's and a (ride) time of 4.58 here.... good swimmers are at super disadvantage. I was watching the Kona express go by me all day long... it's funny to look at some of the women's bike splits. My S.O. avg 156 watts and biked 30 minutes slower than some girls she even split or beat at half IM races this year.

This whole shit fest is "all part of the game"

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
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Kakky, 7m is 4 bike lengths as measured back to front. On the day before the race, Jonnyo and I actually placed 4 bikes lengths in succession to exactly see how long this is. It was shocking to see how small this distance is. Ritticello needs to get up at the athletes meeting and show the exact distance. Then again, if he did, it would result in more grey zone 22 seconds in the 7m zone than now.

Look at it another way, 7m is 10x700 bike wheel. That is not much at all. We need 10m, for pros and age groupers alike. If I was to ride 7m behind a tall guy like slowman, I'd get a huge draft. I am not sure how much of a draft anyone would get 7m back of FM2.0, Cam Brown, or myself for that matter, but behind a big engine at 7m you literally get pulled along.

Dev

What do you mean by "Ford's tunnel fixtures"

The wind tunnel in question isn't long enough for laminar airflow between 2 riders at 7 meters and I agree that extrapolating the data isn't the correct way to do this type of testing.

jaretj

Really ? Drafting is drafting. If the data shows that 7m was too small (and it does) increase it. As for opening the rules up for AG'ers, just because i'm not going to win, I still want to have an honest competitive experience. People that are pro drafting are losing touch with the roots of the sport and I don't see why this should change. Look at Oly distance for christs sake !!! The top IM guys are still racing tight even over 8 hours so any allowance for drafting would be wrong.

That to me is the question our sport needs to deal with. "The roots of the sport". Can you imagine if all our professional sports never changed? No baseball games at night because lights are not the "root". No change in basketball uniforms. No change is basketball balls, of footballs, or baseballs. No adding of instant replay. Etc. Etc. Etc. So, our rules where made under the enviornment of the past. A lot less folks. More only hard core folks. Etc. Today, IMO, this is not what the sports is for the majority of us. So, the question is, do our leaders have the guts to ask the tough questions, and make the tough changes which improve the experience for the majority of TODAY's racers. Now, I know there are a number of very very vocal folks who say the rules are sacred, the roots changed be changed. Sorry, but at all the races I go to, the talk, and action, has nothing to do with "winning". Its all about lifestyle.

So, most folks I talk to just dont have the guts to be vocal. I dont have any issue expressing their concerns.

Now, some with say I am all wet. Well, prove your facts? Now, since non of us can, but as an engineer, I would love to know if I have been hearing the minority or majority, why not have WTC and USAT do a survery. Gather the tough questions our sport is facing, suggest some different ideas as to possible solutions, and get inputs from us, the members? This would seem to be the least USAT could do. USAT is always asking how it can connect better with its members. Well Skip Gilbert, how about it? How about asking us, your customers, what WE want in our sport!!!!

So, tough issues I would suggest USAT consider are

1). Common rule set with WTC

2). Drafting

3). finish line chute with outside assistance

4). Stop tent penalties enforcement during the race

5). wave starts for IM's

6). Wet suit temperature

7). Pro drafting lengths

8). draft legal class with no awards

9). more balanced race distances like the new ITU double OLY

10). different class levels for "USAT certified"

11). Doping rule processes



Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Well there's no need for a powermeter to feel the different with the 7m drafting zone. I think one thing we should take into consideration here's that FORD (WTC biggest sponsor EVER) was the ones doing the analys about 7m. I mean there's a reason why UCI have 25m!!

And there's a reason why WTC wants 7 meter, more contestant on the course, more qualifying events, more money to WTC ...

Dave, who have done his last WTC competition (IM Hawaii 2006, w)

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http://www.nasvik.se

By fixtures, I mean the bits to which the bike is attached for measurement. LSWT in San Diego and the one in Texas (I forget the name) and others have invested considerable time and money into specialized fixtures. Kraig Willet has an article somewhere on his site on the importance of fixtures. Kraig uses the analogy "like weighing a dollar bill on a truck scale" to describe a typical wind tunnel fixture and balance setup.

Martin, I am NOT rant and rave. But, I do listen to enough racers, and I go to a lot of races as you know. So, do I represent the minority or majority? I have my opinion, but lets get some real data. USAT brags all the time about how many members they have. So, who knows what percentage this is of the "total" folks that do tris, but I really dont care. USAT is our leader org. Lets again see them take a leadership role. So, what would you say if some question came back from USAT with 90% of the folks supporting some type of change? Would you say it should be ignored because "A very small percentage of the triathlete community are actually USAT members. "? So, if this is not the right way to start, what do you suggest? No looking at the rules and see how they really work today? Thats what I see most boards getting away with. They always find reasons why they DONT want to ask their members, which may force them to be representatives, rather than ... (will be PC here. :o) )

So, are you saying the rules as they are are perfect? That the folks that "bitch" about some changes are truely the minority? Have any data to show this? You might be right, but, is it possible, you could be wrong?

I know I have given up on the drafting question since it seems it will never change. For the few who complain, its usually only a single answer, rather than what are the various alternatives, the pro and cons of each, and then let the tri membership somehow give their inputs. Just like a good engineer always does. :o)

How is the shoulder doing? Better I hope.



Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Technically, it's known as the Oran W. Nicks Low Speed Wind Tunnel at Texas A&M University:

http://lswt.tamu.edu/

More detailed info about bicycle testing (including a pic of Lance^TM himself) can be found here:

http://lswt.tamu.edu/Bike.htm

Wind tunnels at the University of Washington and at M.I.T. have also been used to test cyclists...

That's what I thought you meant.

I agree that those fixtures aren't correct for the job.

I've been to that tunnel and know what they are capable of.

jaretj

Edit: sorry I wrote that wrong, I meant aren't correct