I'd definitely like to give one a go.

My bigger issue is this.

What is the actual solution? I hear all these great ideas and how many get implemented. Nada...zero...0

That's the issue I see. So no DL, but what then....why can't we come up with a better solution? Why do we get these cool ideas only to never have them implemented? That's the part that I'm frustrated with.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

The cm accurate GPS is literally just getting off the ground. Assuming a similar system is lofted for NA and Europe, perhaps we could have a viable technological solution in the next 3-4 years.

I guess I should add the "penalty lap" is pretty good idea that a few (I think) euro races are using.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I would love to see more amateur draft legal racing. The most exciting racing we see on TV is draft legal. They are racing normal bikes to UCI standards. Everyday people can relate to this and it's very easy and cheap to get on a bike like that and participate. Even with a 105 equipped alloy framed bike you wouldn't ever really need to upgrade. You are truly racing each other versus racing by numbers watching heart rate or power like a bore with OCD. Not everyone lives somewhere with roads suitable to go out and TT for hours either because of road surface, terrain or traffic. Not everyone has a bank balance to gain an aero advantage. In that respect it already isn't fair. The problem from a race organisers perspective is it requires closed roads.

I quite enjoyed racing a cross duathlon earlier this year. Just racing the course, going hard, impossible to pace to heart rate or power. Drafting wasn't even a possibility, no consideration to aero whatsoever. Just down to technical ability and power to weight. Plus no traffic. It hurt like hell but it was fun too.

Sounds as though the majority of riders down in Mexico are on road bikes, I think for this to be safe you'd have to mandate road bikes. I've ridden plenty of fast Gran Fondo type events which basically turn into pack racing - e.g. I did an 80 mile event recently on a very windy course, averaged 24mph and spent most of the ride in a group of >100 riders. There were a few hairy moments and it definitely paid to stay near the front of the pack, but given that it was a bunch of amateurs, some of whom clearly hadn't done much pack riding, it was pretty good. If people had been on TT bikes though, it would have been complete carnage. There's a reason TT bikes are generally banned in those kind of events.

So I don't think safety is particularly a reason not to allow drafting. More for me is that it changes the nature of the sport, putting more emphasis on the swim and the run and less on the bike. Whether that's a good thing or not depends on whether the bike leg is your strongest or weakest discipline!

Go to any group ride that has triathletes in it. Or ride outside in a paceline with triathletes. There's your data.


But then again, you don't ride outside so how would you know?

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blog

Yep. I have raced many over the years, and help at many more. Never ever seen an issue that is any different than normal tri racing. If folks do not talk like on your left, crashes can happen in any race. DL tri is NOT a crit race.

When I raced the DL sprint at Worlds Sat, my wave start was men 60 plus. Since I was up in the front of runners for the first 5K, I ended up with zero folks around me for the 20K bike to try and draft off of.

Oh well, I just love time and time again some folks make these emotional comments on a race they have NEVER done, or ANY data to backup their fake new comments. Every person I talk to after doing a DL race loves it!! I know I sure do, even though I got to do zero drafting. Just great to take the officials out of the race.

Now today racing the STD DU NDL event, going to be interesting even though a 10K run start. The bike it pancake flat with lot of officials so most are concerned about how not go get caught up in drafting. Shall be interesting.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

If a call can be make that is 100% accurate, great, ridicule the person. But since we all see calls that make no sense,sure would be a great way to lose even more folks from our sport

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Yep, key point, most of the folks who complain cannot swim or run.

The piece that always gets missed is DL Tri or sprint is not a crit or fondo race where you all start the same time on the bike. You have to either swim or run first which totally breaks up the start of the bike.

This will be a topic that will never go away.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

What data? They all crash and end up in the hospital? How is your comment that is dangerous and they are crashing?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

What about the 7 guys in your age group who passed you on the bike or were they just going too fast to follow;)?

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Just because there isn't a crash every minute on a ride doesn't mean its not dangerous. That would be like saying driving while texting isn't dangerous unless there's a crash. C'mon Dave.

Triathletes have no idea how to ride in a group/paceline SAFELY. They exhibit behaviors that are dangerous to everyone around them including themselves. Here's some examples:

- overlapping wheels
- not looking ahead (turns, debri, potholes, etc.)
- not thinking ahead
- come to an abrupt stop unannounced
- uncomfortable riding in close proximity to others
- unpredictable behavior (swerving, surges, etc)
- don't look over their shoulder when trying to get back into the paceline/group
- cut people off
- can't handle their bike (instability)
- don't have an exit plan (where to bail)
- don't know how to handle their bike when riders touch/bump each other (eg; shoulder to shoulder or wheel to wheel)

These all create more risk to riders when riding in a group/paceline compared to riding solo or within the legal USAT/WTC distance.

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blog

Never saw them. Since the course Sat was totally anti drafting, meaning, we were either climbing steep hills or flying down them, it was the perfect course to stop drafting.

So, what is you point? My response was about the folks who say drafting is not safe, and I just ask prove it with the data. Me sucking at biking, and really really sucking at biking in the hills,has nothing to do with the safety comments. Lets see, I ended up 6th in the race. The top 3 guys where ahead on the run. Talked to the 5th place guy who passed me on the bike and was scared to death I would catch him on the run. Will see how I do against him today. So, 7 guys passed me on the bike, sorry,again,that is not the data. But even so, it is who gets to the finish line first. And I have just about the worst bike time Sat in my AG. If you cannot be first, why not be last. :)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Again, so what, that is your opinion. I raced DL Sat. I heard no one making these comments. We were having fun. All the folks did not end up in the hospital. DL Tri or DU is NOT a crit race. The courses are not crit courses which need the technical skills you talk about. We do not start on the bike the same time. The racers are not all the same cat level. Oh well, sounds like it either has to be your way,or your way.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

It's not just Triathletes. In the ROAD bike packs, people are crossing tires, random surging to get their Strava segment, spraying water bottles into their mouths to look cool, left rider staying for 5 minute pull while right rider peels off after 2 minutes of pulling, riding with no hands to stretch their backs, half pack goes through lights while half pack stops, people decide they don't want to rotate but don't say anything (you end up in the back of a long pack and trying to surge to get back in the rotation to do your part), group surges then over reacting on the brakes. I gave up on group rides and my road bike sits in the house. Then on top of all that, they don't want Tri bikes because Triathletes don't know how to ride. People, in general, don't bother learning how to ride OR maybe they are learning by getting out there. I would guess this is typical with all local group rides unless you are a tight team.

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http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com

Thanks for more data

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I don't disagree with your assessment. But what I said would more than likely happen....adaption.

Triathletes because the races are "non draft" the demands of competition are completely different than they are for a DL event.

So yes there will be crashes, there are crashes every week in cat 5 races, but they pick up the pieces and move on.

So projecting how it will go based on current riding habits without taking into account likely rule changes (road bikes which are much more comfortable for people to ride and handle in a group).

Again I'm not saying do it, I'm saying I've seen now 3 AG DL races, hell I sat and watched 5 hours of worlds last year and there was no deaths. There were crashes, but of course riding in a 50 person "group" is more dangerous. But doesn't mean it's unsafe, that's a big difference.

Riding on the road is dangerous, so there are level of dangers that we simply accept and some we don't. Wave starts, road bikes, no cross gender drafting are all implemented to limit the "danger".

Again not saying they should do it. Just that I don't think what you see now in riding skills will translate after a few years if that became the style of racing. You get a new boss, and you have an initial level of discomfort doing it "their" way instead of "your" way and then month down the line it's translated over.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

As someone who is primarily a road racer, I can confirm many primarily tri riders are not ready for prime time when it comes to fast pack riding. Not due to lack of inherent skill or handling prowess (although a few individuals I have seen do stand out in that regard). Its the combination of superior fitness and inferior practice at pack riding. If fitness keeps you in a group you may not be able to handle (the faster the group, the faster things happen) you do not have the "reps" to be able to predict and react, or more importantly not overreact to things. I have seen former tri people become skilled road racers and pack riders, but often have a harder time due to this paradox of being too fit too soon without the matching reps.

Adding in aerobars and high speed, and even ProTour level riders have issues at times in TTT events.

If this were viewed as a critical skill to be practiced as it is for road racers, draft legal tris could be safe. IMHO, they would be defacto running races as well but that wasn't a point of discussion.

How many crashes in the AG DL race and how many people racing?? Dave says there is no data to show anyone crashes.

This is all fine in small races like ITU AG du's. What about big races without closed roads and limited wave starts like 70.3 and IM? You tell everyone that TT bikes are now banned from the sport, is that better for everyone??

There are definitely crashes in the ITU draft legal AG races. A teammate of mine raced in Mexico last year at Worlds and there was a crash in the men's 50-54 or 55-59 wave that took out several riders. I'm sure that wasn't the only crash.

What I imagine could happen in the next decade in the U.S. is a continuation of the trend of less enforcement of the current positioning rules for AGers in all races except for the USAT national championships. It will be interesting to see how Lifetime enforces (or doesn't enforce) traditional positioning rules once their races aren't USAT sanctioned. Also, will ITU decide to abandon non draft legal short course racing within the next decade? The U.S. seems to be one of the few countries that would really fight this.

As a time triallist I wouldn't want to see it because triathlon drives TT bike development!

1st- i dont think LC (70.3/IM) should ever go DL. Im discussing real possibility of sprint races going DL. I believe the case that Slowman talked about in mexico, no DL races were longer then olympic so your tri bike can still be ridden in LC events, and he even made the case that apparently with rise in DL participation, that non-draft numbers didn't suffer either.

At 2016 itu worlds, i believe they said ~750 people did the DL sprint. There were wrecks, but it wasn't dangerous at all. 1 looped bike course, closed course, wave starts.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

How many crashes in the AG DL race and how many people racing??


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2016 ITU Cozumel Sprint Worlds

AG's from 16-19 all the way up to 85-89 male


1327 racers


22 DNF's.


So 2% of the world's population who did an AG DL race crashed out, if all the DNF's were from crashes.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

If there was a 100% accurate technological solution to drafting, Ironman would never implement it because 75% of the field would be DQ'd.