Nutrition...he needs help. Hope he’s looking into this.

What do you think are the issues?

For 90% of ag l would say yes, because you have people who are capable of running 3:30-4 hours but a most walk it in.

I timed a bunch of splits in Kona 2015 at zero (sort of) to 10 km Frodo split below 38 and then cruised to win. The only other guy to do sub 40 was sanders...Frodo had to break the competition.

Symonds also went sub 40 but also walked and the run for him at that point was “holistic “

Talking timing from surf side or whatever that hotel is at hot corner.

Fast forward this year and he (LS)splits very fast first 10 km is looking like sub 37????

Maurice

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Hey Maurice, just all his comments after the race about the cramping and the laboured way he was running those last 10ish km. He’s talked a lot about nutrition and his difficulties with it, I just hope he figures it out before Kona. It must be hard to test given where he lives, and spends most of the time on the trainer. I think a training camp in Kona with some hard hot rides would help.

I’m totally armchair quarterbacking here...but never seen anyone lock up the way he did.

Edit: I’m talking about Kona, not the indoor event.

Do you not think it could be due to him going balls out for the swim and bike? If i recall correctly, this was not a back to back discipline indoor tri. I believe they had 5 (or 15) minutes between events. 419 watts for 15 minutes is ridiculous.

Do you not think it could be due to him going balls out for the swim and bike? //

When I hear people say this or balls to the wall I get a chuckle. This is something you say about a 4k pursuit, or a 200 free, or a 1500m run. But when a guy is doing an 8 hour race, you can bet your life he is not going balls to the wall at any point in the race. It is a well paced race, and perhaps if you go 1 or 2% over pace, you will pay in the end. Likely Lionel did just that, not overall, but in certain instances during the race, and he paid a very small but significant price at the end(last 10k or so).


I think people get his personality confused with a race with abandon attitude. I guarantee you he has a plan and is very good at sticking to his plans. You dont often see him actually blowing up and walking, like Mark Allen(and many others) did in many of his early attempts at Kona.


And I'n no wattage expert, was that really good for 15 minutes? I know your weight has a big factor in comparisons, but remember Bjorn doing 465 watts for 45 minutes going up our mountain for the record one year. I suppose Cancellera would have even more impressive numbers, but probably weights more?

Fair enough,

I just think his nutrition (based on results) is pretty close, or at least no where as bad as it was a few years ago.

Also totally arm chairing it as well. I just hope it’s minor tweaks as opposed to ripping up the play book.

Maurice

I am not taking anything away from his effort as it also accompanied some swimming and running, but you are right to point out his bike effort. Lionel is an uber biker in the triathlon world and would be an incredibly strong pure biker, but on power alone this is pedestrian on the world tour level. Wurf has posted a few shots of some of his training efforts: 537 AP 5 minutes; 468 AP 13 minutes; 439 AP 20 minutes; 323 AP 4h27m. Wurf was only a domestique too and is about 8 lbs lighter than Lionel. I've ridden with the Cannondale boys on a few occasions in the past year (just a middling pro team) and there are a handful of guys on that team capable of similar and more.

Numbers are def good for a triathlete, but as you said pure bikers are gonna score higher. We had a regional 20 min bike comp where the winner averaged around 5.7w/kg which is slightly more than Lionel and for 5 min extra. He is of course a pure biker and competitive in local/nats but still!

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Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon

I agree since Ed Veal, who was riding beside Lionel, averaged 445 I think. Ed is a good cyclists (canadian hour record holder), but he is not world tour caliber.

I just checked and Ed is listed at 6'2" 190 (86kg). 445 is still huge but less impressive at that kg.

5.6 w/kg is nothing special in the cycling world. In fact to keep it in perspective Cancellara pushed 442 avg for 1:12 at the Olympic TT, he was 10lbs heavier.....and not riding the questionable power tap pedals.

5.6 w/kg is nothing special in the cycling world//

On a technical note, what kind of bikes did they use, is it possible that they dont register power the same as on the road bikes? We all know that Lionel is a very powerful guy, perhaps some of it was lost in the meter used at a gym?

Or it could be just like his swim, he could do those watts for the next 2 hours too...(-;

He needs more time in the saddle. I remember reading his annual totals and thinking his run volume is fine, he just needs more longer rides. In order to run well in Ironman you need enough bike volume, which if he adds he won't suffer so much and decrease in speed in the last 10 km of the run.

I don't know. I am not one to challenge the training methods of someone of his caliber and his results are, uh, decent. It is more telling that he spoke about nutrition issues following this year's Kona. He indicated that as soon as he ate after the run, his range of motion was restored and he could move his legs again.

wasnt it quoted somewhere before that Sanders FTP was around 420 watts?

Plus its about how you train right? Ironman athletes arent going to be the best at 15 min power spikes -- when they are focused on pushing for much longer time frames. I myself fell into the trap of perfecting peak 20 min power for a couple years before realizing that I couldnt push 80% of that for more than 45 mins.

On instagram, he had his LG on a trainer next to a dude on a spin bike.

He's always been pretty transparent in sharing his power files on his blog and with training peaks. Just dividing his NP/ IF should give you what he has his FTP set at. It's consistently set around 400 watts in his published power files.

From 2016 (~400 FTP)
https://www.trainingpeaks.com/...ronman-world-record/

From 2017 (~400 FTP):
https://www.trainingpeaks.com/...-world-championship/

Given that it is February and the dead of winter in NA, that is some impressive riding to do an IF of 1.05 for 15'

Lionel and Ed Veal (who was on the other side of Lionel) rode their own bikes on their own trainers (Wahoo and CT, respectively). The rest of the competitors rode watt/spin bikes that were all put under the same calibration standards.

I heard the comment that it was their "pro perk" to have that set up.

I think there have been many athletes over the years that have been in the same place as Lionel was at Kona this year. The reason you have never seen anyone lock up like that is because very rarely have we seen anyone gut it out and continue to run though it.
Call me a fan boy. I've been around too long and through too much to care.

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It's a Good life if you don't Weaken!
My Mom 1922-2004

Not really, there are many things about lionel that are super impressive, and I think his swim in this event was great, but 15 min at 105% of ftp is nothing extreme. The absolute watts on the other hand, are monster.

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Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon

Gee, tell us something we already don't know, that single sport athletes are generally better at their sport than triathletes. That's no surprise at all. Sander's power output is still impressive and really good for a triathlete for whom 15 minute power is far less important than it is for a Pro Tour rider.

So why try to make the comparison in the first place? Sure, it's impressive. But of course you're going to receive the most logical comparison.........short distance cycling time trial power.

But, to put that into perspective........you're still WAY out of the range of the stats that matter to pro tour riders.

The pro tour rider stuff that often matters is well below the 15min range, with repeat-ability. More like 30sec, 1min, 3min, 5min stuff. In other words, attacks and responses to attacks.

In a way, pro tour riders have to be able to ride both like a triathlete and a pro cyclist. You have to be able to attack and respond, or be able to off on epic long breakaways or mountain finishes where you're closer to the same hours-on efforts.

Agree with your assessment.

If there were break aways and other instances where you had to go balls to the wall for short periods of time in an Ironman, I could see how power numbers would be more relevant.