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Re: Lance at RAGBRAI [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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You know exactly how I meant it. And it's not bullying. And it is a grown up man response.
I'm stunned that you believe that. Make what you want of this

_______

I guess that means that you won't be riding or sharing a beer with Lance and me ..... you're invited anyway ;-)

Dave :-)
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Re: Lance at RAGBRAI [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Francois wrote:
You know exactly how I meant it. And it's not bullying. And it is a grown up man response.
I'm stunned that you believe that. Make what you want of this.


Actually I am not exactly sure of your angle here, but I have hunch...and that is exactly why these threads deteriorate. You're not just responding to me, you're responding on a board to anyone who wants to read it. That is why discussions go downhill. Feel free to elaborate in a way that you are discussing the topic, rather than taking personal shots at another poster. If there is no personal shot to another poster, than clarify that too.

Again, you are a grown man with a PhD, and are capable of writing full sentences. It is unneccessary to leave things to misinterpretation when you really don't need to.

Edit:...and just so it is clear, the people I feel the worst for are riders like Mike Barry. LA and the rest had their glory. The tier down, just wanting to live the dream they worked for and having to dope or go home were the guys in the real prisoner's dilemma.
Last edited by: devashish_paul: Jul 25, 13 9:10
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Re: Lance at RAGBRAI [dcsxtri10] [ In reply to ]
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Actually, I wouldn't mind. I don't like beer though. I'd like to hear what he says off the record, and I don't hate Lance. I don't admire him one bit. But I don't hate him.
And I certainly don't believe that riders who dope have no choice. That is basically a free pass to doping statement. I'm stunned that Dev said that.
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Re: Lance at RAGBRAI [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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No, I've said all I needed to say to you. nothing else to add.
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Re: Lance at RAGBRAI [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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I think guys who don't dope have a chance today. In 1995 or 1998, maybe less to none. Some of them like Tyler could probably barely keep their jobs un doped. See my comment about Mike Barry those are the types of riders I feel worst for.
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Re: Lance at RAGBRAI [leegoocrap] [ In reply to ]
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leegoocrap wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:


After hearing Michael Barry's confession, reading Tyler's book reading the Lance coverage and now hearing the string of confessions from others, what I see is a common thread between all these dopers. They grew up, dreamed of being pro cyclists and probably had a dream based on an illusion from the grandeur of Anquetil, Merckx, Fignon, Hinualt, Roche etc.

Then like all those guys who came before them, they arrive on the scene and they learn that to keep the dream alive doping is part of the "process"

If you are Lemond, you arrived, "just in time"...and could maybe squeek out a few Tour wins racing clean against guys on "minor dope". Then in 1991, you're looking at your SRM and you're doing the same power as 1990 or 1989, and you are off the back. Thankfully your career is coming to an end and EPO (as the saying goes today) was turning donkey's into race horses, but I'd rather explain it as, "turning clydesdales into race horses". Now big guys like Indurain and Riis who could never climb that well were going to win grand tours.

So now an entire generation of riders arrives on the scene and they find out that they can go on EPO and stay in the game, or pack their bags and go home.

If you grow up dreaming of becoming a doctor, you can go to Standford Medical school, do your residency and have a good living without cheating. You can go to Wharton, do an MBA and there are plenty of jobs in the world of business where you can play by the rules and make a good living.

But what happens to all these kids who did not go to school, dream of a pro cycling career, work their tails off and arrive at the door step in the mid 90's and learn "this is the process". As we are hearing from all of them, they chose to dive in work within the informal rules of engagement, rather than quite and go home. it's not like there are 200,000 other equivalent jobs where you can make $200K per year as you can with an MBA. There are only around 200 jobs for these guys.

Guess what, they screwed up, because they wanted to be pro cyclists so bad that they had no other choice...dope and stay in the game, or don't dope and go home (well, some chose not to and could race as a continental pro in North America).

You can hate an entire generation of cyclists because they happened to grow up at the exact same time that the pharmaceutical industry had come up with a drug that helped patients who needed assist with red blood cell production produce them. That does not get LA off the hook for brow beating his peers and his teammmates. I'll leave that to the morality police to debate.

But I can see how these guys ended up doing what they did. From my position, being a professional in a fairly well paying industry where there are a several hundred thousand jobs for guys with similar intellect and creativity, it is easy to shit all over these cyclists. But if my industry only had 200 jobs, I don't think my colleagues and competition would be quite so "level headed" and would "play by the rules". Everyone would be eating eat other's lunch just to keep their salaries. We already do that at the corporate level to stay in business, but thankfully don't need to do that at the individual level.

I don't think other pro sports are that different....dope and stay in the NFL or don't dope and be cut from the team. What does the kid who dreamed of being the next Tom Brady do now as he tries out for Michigan?


Best post on this (or basically any doping) thread.

+1 on this.

Live every week like it's shark week.
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Re: Lance at RAGBRAI [tgrunnin] [ In reply to ]
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tgrunnin wrote:
Did Trek move away from him? Thought he had some stake in Trek? Forgive me if this is a dead horse issue, just haven't kept up with it.
Trek dropped him like everyone else did. I remember there was something about having a piece of Trek, but they either "relieved" him of that, or it was a separate issue entirely. He could perhaps just be a stakeholder in the company with no real power or sponsorship. Just another investment.

-Stephen in Arkansas
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Re: Lance at RAGBRAI [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
I think guys who don't dope have a chance today. In 1995 or 1998, maybe less to none. Some of them like Tyler could probably barely keep their jobs un doped. See my comment about Mike Barry those are the types of riders I feel worst for.

The types of riders you should feel worst for are the ones you never heard of because they silently opted out and faded away.
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Re: Lance at RAGBRAI [kny] [ In reply to ]
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^^^^
THIS!
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Re: Lance at RAGBRAI [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Francois wrote:
You know exactly how I meant it. And it's not bullying. And it is a grown up man response.
I'm stunned that you believe that. Make what you want of this.

Actually I'll admit I didn't know quite what you meant either. Wasn't sure if you were literally stunned that he believes that or you were expressing mock incredulity (i.e. a candidate for pink font).
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Re: Lance at RAGBRAI [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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Dev knew what I meant...
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Re: Lance at RAGBRAI [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Francois wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:

Guess what, they screwed up, because they wanted to be pro cyclists so bad that they had no other choice...dope and stay in the game, or don't dope and go home (well, some chose not to and could race as a continental pro in North America).


Stunned.

Well, I'm not sure about the 'they screwed up' part......Id say they made a career choice...........but if you are disagreeing with the bolded part, then I'd respectfully suggest that you don't know what pro cycling has been like over the past 20 years. Many former pro's have written about their experiences, and they were exactly as Dev bolded...either dope to go fast enough to make it in the pros, or go home. Did that suck? Perhaps. But what are you stunned about?
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Re: Lance at RAGBRAI [kny] [ In reply to ]
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kny wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
I think guys who don't dope have a chance today. In 1995 or 1998, maybe less to none. Some of them like Tyler could probably barely keep their jobs un doped. See my comment about Mike Barry those are the types of riders I feel worst for.


The types of riders you should feel worst for are the ones you never heard of because they silently opted out and faded away.


I agree somewhat with this, but I bet there are less of these folks than you'd think. Not just anyone can take a pill/injection and suddenly be a pro rider. I'd bet if you somehow took all doping away, the top 200 riders in the world would for the -most- part still be the same, maybe just in a slightly different order.....maybe....

Using our favorite former pro, Lance Armstrong, as an example, lets remember that he was a top level triathlete before he ever became a pro cyclist.
Last edited by: gibson00: Jul 25, 13 10:59
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Re: Lance at RAGBRAI [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not so sure. Whatever you think of Dev, he doesn't tend to do those sly little posts of the Let-Me-Tauntingly-Draw-You-Out-So-I-Can-Insult-You variety that are so popular on this forum . If he says, he didn't understand what you meant, he might have had the same confusion I did.

Because if he did understand, you would no doubt get a ten paragraph treatise on why he disagrees with you. :-)
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Re: Lance at RAGBRAI [gibson00] [ In reply to ]
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They all had the choice to not dope. ALL of them. They all made the choice to stay in cycling and dope. Currently funding rates in federal agencies is around 5-6%.
It's more competitive than pro cycling. Should I do like a few others did and cook the numbers to get good preliminary data because 'I really want it bad'?
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Re: Lance at RAGBRAI [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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He does actually. He wrote a really long seemingly polite post...but it's just seemingly polite...'answer like a grown up etc'
He and I have been around this topic a bunch of times, and we sure disagree. He knew exactly what I meant.
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Re: Lance at RAGBRAI [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Francois wrote:
...Should I do like a few others did and cook the numbers to get good preliminary data because 'I really want it bad'?....

Do those 'few others' have vacation homes in Hawaii?? Food for thought....... ;)
Ok, joking....sort of... :)
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Re: Lance at RAGBRAI [gibson00] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe they do.
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Re: Lance at RAGBRAI [gibson00] [ In reply to ]
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Well, I personally know of one who got as far as racing pro in Europe and choosing to come home because he did not want to get on a medical program. Sure, all the top guys are the creme de la creme, but there surely are plenty who did not get as far along as Stephen Swart before choosing to go to medical school instead. All those people, and the dopers themselves too, were cheated of finding out how good they could have been on a level playing field, and that sucks. And, "everyone dopes" does not make it a level playing field, even for the dopers.
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Re: Lance at RAGBRAI [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Don't get me wrong, they all made the choice to cheat, and I'd never say that it wasn't wrong to do so. I just strongly disagree with the opinion that Armstrong did anything worse than most of the other pros. If he is banned for life, all of them should be.
Even cyclingnews.com has an article posted about how ironic it is that the TDF had guys like Indurain and Virenque attending the final stage celebrations, both former dopers....
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Re: Lance at RAGBRAI [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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"I'm stunned that you believe that," and "No, I've said all I needed to say to you,"

...to a pretty easy guy to get along with, and someone who's been here for more than a decade, is really dev's point. you aren't really interested in communicating with, rather, yelling at.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Lance at RAGBRAI [gibson00] [ In reply to ]
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Well, I think Lance did a lot worse (with the bullying etc.) That said, it's mind boggling to me that people like Riis are still in the sport. Frankly, I don't care whether the
7 tours were removed from Lance, because we really have no one to give them to anyway. BUT, I think lifetime ban from competitive sport is warranted (so is it for
Jaja and co.)
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Re: Lance at RAGBRAI [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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That was not yelling. That was more along the lines of shaking my head in disbelief. And indeed, I'm not really interesting in communicating with him anymore.
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Re: Lance at RAGBRAI [kny] [ In reply to ]
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kny wrote:
Well, I personally know of one who got as far as racing pro in Europe and choosing to come home because he did not want to get on a medical program. Sure, all the top guys are the creme de la creme, but there surely are plenty who did not get as far along as Stephen Swart before choosing to go to medical school instead. All those people, and the dopers themselves too, were cheated of finding out how good they could have been on a level playing field, and that sucks. And, "everyone dopes" does not make it a level playing field, even for the dopers.

One of the guys who went to my son's high school raced for team Motorola in the mid 90's (Gord Fraser). His picture is up in my son's high school as a top XC skier from his time. I showed my son Gord's picture and said, "see this guy. He went to your high school. He was good. Darn good. He held the Canadian Record in the 15K ITT for a while. He was on the same team as Lance and he came home to race in North America because he chose to not dope".

I'm not an idiot, I feel bad for guys like Gord who got a whiff of the big time and then chose to race continental. It is just easy to sit back here in 2013, 2 decades removed from that time, from our comfortable middle class lives and judge all these guys. The pawns in the game...both those who doped and those who walked away...they were the big victims.

But at least for the cyclists I actually have some sympathy because it is a team based sport and you have to make the team (like football). The teams control the limited jobs.

In triathlon there were no teams that controlled the jobs of triathletes in the 90's.

Dev
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Re: Lance at RAGBRAI [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Who's talking 2 decades ago? My 1sthand knowledge is from 8 years ago.
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