You missed his entire point. WHAT IF HE DIDN'T MISS A LOOP?



then I will ask him to be my coach, because I sure as hell would like to improve so much so fast..

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http://www.wimdedoncker.be

There are so many variables that go into an Ironman race you cannot just assume that he missed a loop. You never know if maybe, just maybe he just had a perfect race. Difference in bike splits is not proof.

Have you written the race director and asked him if he has incontrovertible evidence that Zvika did both loops? If so, what was his response?
Have you asked the race director what controls were in place to assure that all racers did the FULL course? If so, what was his response?
If you haven't done the foregoing, then your post is premature at best.
Also, I'd love to hear from Zvika and from anyone who may have ridden near him and who might have seen him complete both loops. Eye witness testimony would have some probative value, IMHO.

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

Gee, did you ever run an IM???
Even with a perfect race, you don't improve THAT well in less than 2 months.
Face it, the guy missed a loop

they have called him. he said their was NO evidence that he did NOT do it all.
no controls
take it to the WTC was his response

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http://www.wimdedoncker.be

I would WRITE. Or, at least email. You should have some written response from the race director for an allegation of this magnitude. If he fails to respond, I think your friend's case to the WTC for a slot is improved somewhat.

The admission that no controls were in place, if that's what you mean, is damning as well.

Best of luck to your friend. You are very kind to go to bat for him, but you should not have mentioned names. That was a big no-no, IMHO.

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

then I will ask him to be my coach, because I sure as hell would like to improve so much so fast..

You never know what can happen and I'll give you a good example. I raced Powerman N.C. this year. My first run was ranked 29th, my ride was 52nd and my second run was 6th. Four pros and a really fast age grouper beat me on the second run.

But how can that be; nobody runs the second run in a duathlon faster than the first? Especially not one and a half minutes faster after a 52K ride. I must have cheated. I must have cut the course somewhere.

I for a fact no that I did not, but it looks odd. I have a perfectly good explanation for it, but someone could look at the results and say, "Hey, there is no way that guy ran the whole course; it just looks wrong."

You know nothing, but what a few numbers say and yet you doggedly act like you know everything.

Chad

I personally saw this happen in exactly that spot in 2001. The athlete in question I'll just describe as "High Profile". He went on to finish the race and should have been on the podium. At the awards banquet, however, he was conspicuously absent and there was no mention of him. My thought at the time was someone busted him.

Cutting the out & back has been a problem at Ironman races, mostly on the run. I've been on the volunteer team at a few races where the timing mat placement has been a big issue. I was shocked to hear about the number of people at past races who stepped into the last porta-potty before the turn around then exited heading in the other direction. I think IMNA was also initially surprised that so many people would cheat this way. Happily they have taken steps to correct the problem.

Gary Mc

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Gary Mc
Did I mention I did Kona

How do you know that in his previous race he didn't have ...

1. Flat tire

2. Nutrition problems

3. Muscles cramping

4. too low seat post :)

any of these can add up

Regardless of what happened in prior races, the lack of controls over the two looped sections of the bike course is now troubling me. I've discussed this issue just now with several people and one queried how the integrity of the race could be guaranteed. For the pros, that is not a problem because missing one of the loops would have stuck out like a sore thumb most likely, but for age groupers we have an entirely different set of difficulties. Also, even if you didn't have pros racing and money on the line, wouldn't timing mats really be necessary? Did WTC drop the ball on this issue? Too expensive? What? I think this bears some explaining.

I did the whole course and my dreadful bike split reflects it! I know a racer, whose name I will not mention, who has never done an ironman before, is not a cyclist, and broke 6 hours as an "older" age grouper. Needless to say, that person's bike split raised some eyebrows.

The more I think about it, the more I think I'd like some answers. The credibility of the Ironman brand is at stake, IMHO.

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

Obviously, this guy is using EPO. I'm sure the French authorities will get to the bottom of it in a couple of years or so.

Now, if the guy had changed to a P3 for this race everyone here would be saying "Oh, well there you go then. I'm surprised he only improved by that much and not more."

You are assuming that everything went well for him in that 800th place bike split. Maybe he had mechanical or physical problems. I admit it looks like he did not complete the entire course at IMUK. But I would not take away his Kona slot based on just the difference in bike rankings.

Gee, do not forget Zvika is +50 years old. No one makes such progress at that age and on that course, within 2 months. No way.

He could miss a loop by mistake. No problemo. But If he refuses to admit his mistake, than he is a cheater and does not deserve his Kona slot. If you have a Kuota, you do have a computer showing you mileage, right ?

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Fuck a duck and try to fly

I think Wim is way out of line on this. He didn't have to name the guy.

Wim also assumes that the guy was on top form for those previous IM races - how would you know that ? He MAY have been injured or problems on the bike.

The guy has been slandered and you have no proof.

Look at Lance - before 1999 he'd never won a Tour and then what happened ?

he took EPO :-)))))))

I know I am out of line again :-)

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http://www.wimdedoncker.be

I agree. I know a guy that did really well at an IM last year. Top 30.

However I was sure he must of cut the swim. Since he swam a 58. Which isnt' great. However all of his half IM swims for the last two-three years have been in the 38-40 min range. He even did a race six weeks before the ironman were he swam 38 mins. So I was really shocked at the 58.

However, I don't know what he did or how he trained but all of his HIM swims after the ironman :-) . have been in the 29-30 range. I think I did mention it (the issue) somewhere on a forum, however I'm glad I didn't mention his name.

Clearly he continues to cut the swim.

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- Nick
Now that I know some of you guys look through the special needs bags for kicks, I'm gonna put some really weird stuff in mine. I can see it now. "What the heck was he going to do with a family pack of KFC chicken, a football helmet full of peanut butter, a 12 inch rubber dildo, and naked pictures of Bea Arthur?"

Well, actually, I race frequently without a computer, but I agree it's likely that he had one.

Nonetheless, it is the race director's responsibility to ensure the integrity of the race course. Where is someone on behalf of WTC to respond to this?

Also, I just had two emails from two separate people in which BOTH of them, to my utter surprise (to say nothing of disgust) opined that they believe one person (in one case) and two people (in the second case) DID NOT do both loops of the short loops on the end of the course. In addition, the English woman who drove me to the race and met several of the racers has raised this issue regarding one racer who finished very high up in the standings. The racer was also a newbie and finished in the top 50 with a sub 6 hour bike split even though he/she was a runner with only one sprint race as experience. Good grief....I will not ask another soul about this bike course for fear I was the only one who did all of it. :)

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

LOL...you're right. Give me a few minutes to google and post his race results for the last three years.

>The credibility of the Ironman brand is at stake, IMHO.

I agree - perhaps races that don't put out sufficient timing mats should not offer Kona spots?

Is there a timing mat @ Hawi , hawaii turning point ?

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http://www.wimdedoncker.be

I'm not sure, I can't say I've had the honor of racing Kona. ;) And the webcam is fixed on the finish.

What do you think of this one ?

1496 JULIA FROBLE 15:01:44 1013 Female F60-64 2 USA 1:34:08 1164 0:09:54 1079 6:02:18 140 0:30:50 1158 3:30:18 1141 3:14:15 1030 6:44:33
498 MATT WILLCOCKS

60 year old female who's bike leg exceeds only one hour of Rhodes'. She must have been better than Paula NBF when she was younger...

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Fuck a duck and try to fly

Timing mat @ the first turn around in town (5miles'ish), Waikaloa @ mile 30'ish, and at the turn in Hawi.

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Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com

Like I said several pages back in this thread, it you dig into the slower athletes, you will find dozens and dozens of those that missed, or intentionally skipped a loop or two. There are a lot of blantant cheaters out there, and just because they are a nice guy, doesn't preclude them from cheating. There are a few pro heros that this board idolize, that have been caught blatantly cheating, and covered up..And I don't mean bike stuff like drafting and such, but cutting the course when they think no one is watching...I've caught a few in my day, but as I said earlier, most people just get lost out there, and take the short route if it is convient and there are no controls..Shame on Ironman for this one, $500+ entry fees, and no chip timing controls....Lame....