I think he is saying that 90/70 is not nearly enough to put down a top performance

Jeroen

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Owner at TRIPRO, The Netherlands

It would be insanely expensive to go 100g/h for even just key sessions using Maurten or some other expensive sugar drink. But it would be pretty convenient.

You can also spend 10min/wk scooping maltodextrin, fructose, and Gatorade into bottles for <$1/100g. A little less convenient but less than half the cost. Also gives you the freedom to experiment with your own ratios as opposed to being stuck with whatever the brand you like makes.

But realistically for most AGs I don't think it's a lack of time, just a lack of knowledge. You're bombarded with every overpriced fueling company telling you why their proprietary ratio is the best when they're effectively identical. It takes at least a little research to learn the how to of fueling, and even more to learn the why.

I think that describes it really well. That's how I see it too.

Thank you for the spreadsheet. The calculations at the bottom assume you want to replenish all of the carbs you burned, and not rely on existing glycogen stores to a significant degree, correct?

If yes, would these apply to an ironman more than a short course race?

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"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden

I would agree. But I also think it's decision fatigue. Maybe not lack of time, but isn't valued enough to put extra thought into.

I used to DIY all the time, but after a while, it just became more convenient to use what I was likely going to be using in races. There are still days where I DIY, but I'm much less likely to use it if it's not already prepared and waiting for me as I get my shoes on.

Just a general statement about the topic.

Just because someone does x and get a result of Y doesn't mean Y was the best the result they could have achieved. Or it works for others etc.


Sam Long and Dan is an interesting topic and I am not sure they want to make it public (not saying it's true) but Sam Long is sponsored by Power BAR and we know Dan is basically a owner/sponsored/ basing all focus of training around selling a product that is competition to Power bar and of course says don't consume POWER BAR PRODUCTS. This was probably more an issue then a training program.

As for saying not all endurance athletes burn high fats amount? YES THEY do or they wouldn't be pro endurance athletes. after 90 minutes it's basically down to your fat consumption rate as your biggest factor to maintain the base speed required.

Sam longs IRONMAN results where more impaired by back issues and run issues off the bike not fueling which he seems to be running much better off the bike now.

Age group Ironman athletes, half the time slow down/ walk to mechanical pain or muscle fatigue not fueling.
And when they do have fueling gut issues it is more to do with pacing control shutting down digestion and becoming to dehydrated then rather what they are consuming.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

This is a fun tangent. Sam has shown himself to be pretty thin skinned to criticism. No insult there, but he seems to project a feeling of being under attack when the criticism mounts. When he gets praise and attention, he seems to be riding on cloud nine. Lately it's more of the latter.

But when you consider the time he signed up with Plews, for what, just a few weeks? You had all kinds of comments about Sam going keto. People were digging into him when he raced at Oceanside last year about needing more carbs *in the race* to his face. I think the fact that he felt pretty weak as he did some of Plews initial training in a carb depleted state (by the accounts to my recognition), you had Sam see the following:
1. He's struggling to post similar numbers to what he's done in the past during training and the big difference is he's not carb fueling as much.
2. He's struggling in the two races he did*.
3. He's getting mocked the entire time.

I think if he was getting mocked and winning, he wouldn't care. I think the fact that he was getting mocked brought a lot more attention to his results and he bailed ASAP. Now maybe, if he stayed the course, he could have converted over to a lower carb fueling during training and boosted those carbs in racing (if that's the Plews protocol?).

But it's obvious, that whatever he did worked for him.

* I think in both Miami and Oceanside 2023 Sam likely felt he capable of being better than every one of those athletes who placed above him. Perhaps with the exception of Leo Bergere, Sam has proven that to be true in all those cases.

Correct.

That is not account for glycogen stored nor accounting for the swim energetic cost in an ironman.

Typical textbook numbers are:

* 70kg male athlete - Liver glycogen 90g and muscle glycogen 400g
* 60kg female athlete - Liver glycogen 70g and muscle glycogen 300g.

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David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com

Scooping!??

You’re doing it all wrong. I’ll make a video.

TLDW: Pour using a scale!

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Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
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📱 Check out our app → Saturday: Pro Fuel & Hydration, a performance nutrition coach in your pocket.
Join us on YouTube → Saturday Morning | Ride & Run Faster and our growing Saturday User Hub

Beautiful and understandable - thank you!! PS - in my experience that hits it about right (for me!).

Thank you,

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

Haha yes a scale is much more accurate but I got sick of it after awhile. I just weighed it how much a scoop of each weighs and it's close enough for me.

The standard Gatorade scooper is 40g of maltodextrin or 55g of fructose.

I use the scale and pour-spout-thing for speed, rather than accuracy.

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Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
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📱 Check out our app → Saturday: Pro Fuel & Hydration, a performance nutrition coach in your pocket.
Join us on YouTube → Saturday Morning | Ride & Run Faster and our growing Saturday User Hub

100 grams of carbs per hour would make me high in blood sugar.

If I train before breakfast or late evening I don't need to take on carbs during training - if I do it sends me high in blood sugar. This is because there is very little insulin circulating in my system at that time (because I don't produce my own)

One exception is that sometimes if I go longer than 2 hours whilst fasted my blood sugars will start to drop.

I eat quite a few carbs outside of training at meals, so am not low carb by any means.

If I have no insulin on board, and I take on carbs during exercise, my blood sugars will go high. This happens when I exercise pre-breakfast and early to late evening prior to dinner. An exception is when I train pre-breakfast fasted and go over 2 hours, I will sometimes need to take on gels.

As I understand it, insulin is needed to convert carbs to glycogen. At least that's what I was taught when I was diagnosed as a diabetic back in 1991/92 or so. Generally if I am taking on the right amount of carbs during training, my blood sugars should stay relatively consistent.

How do I avoid Gatorade Endurance and other powders from spewing into the air when scooping or not scooping?

Use more granulated mixtures. Finer powders are a pain. Reason number 56 that sugar is a staple in our bottles. If you use enough of it you only have to use about two thirds of a scoop of something else and something about the pouring mechanics of scoops less than 3/4 full makes for less airborne powder. :)

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Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
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📱 Check out our app → Saturday: Pro Fuel & Hydration, a performance nutrition coach in your pocket.
Join us on YouTube → Saturday Morning | Ride & Run Faster and our growing Saturday User Hub

Table sugar has been a game changer, so easy-just put bottle on scale and pour sugar directly into bottle for desired amount....and ridiculously cheap!

Maybe my mind just works differently, but I always just go 350kcal/100watt-hours and say half of that is from fat. For a race I'll do that actual in depth calculations, but for big workouts and B-races this is probably withing the body's margin of error.

If this is from the standpoint of a diabetic with insulin kinematics being the critical path then I can't comment as I know embarrassingly little about it. I would imagine this is something where the risk/reward isn't there, but have you played around with exogenous insulin dosing to increase uptake of carbs beyond natural limits within endurance events? I don't know if that's even the limiting factor, just a (probably stupid) thought.

I can scoop faster than I can pour, but once I get uncomfortable once bottle filling optimization goes into the fractions of a second.

Cheap Gatorade powder + cheap sodium citrate as per the Saturday app has been a game changer for me. Wouldn't ever pay for overpriced tri fuelling ever again.

IYKYK

Risk is greater than reward and it probably wouldnt work as you'd either need to eat all of the carbs straight away or inject yourself during the race itself and then consume all of the carbs you need to offset the effects of the insulin you just injected.

I have injected myself during an ironman after the bike leg as I was quite high in blood sugar. I ended up going low and waiting for an ambulance at an aid station. People noticed me walking unsteadily and swerving side to side, but because in a race you have so many things going on that can mimic the feeling of a low blood sugar I hadn't realised it.


This was all pre continuous glucose monitors.

I will usually inject pre race and sometimes pre training if my levels are high and I prefer to take on carbs rather than letting the exercise bring my levels down naturally. But this can also be a bit fraught. In races adrenaline stuffs up levels massively and I have finished many races quite high in blood sugar. I would prefer to be slightly high than low though, as going low is race over whereas a high you can keep going (I've finished many races above 20 mmol/L).

Also with an insulin injection, you need to take in the carbs straight away to counter its effects and i wouldn't want to play around with my lantus (long acting) injection levels just so I can eat more carbs as this insulin lasts much longer than any race i do.

Half the cost? Around here the difference is far bigger:

Maurten: 4€ /gel (25g of carbs)
Sugar: ~1.50€ /kg

Maurten ends up being 160€ per kg carbs, which is 100x the cost of sugar.

Yeah but math was also factoring in the cost of Gatorade. Classical speed-nectar is obviously almost cost-free compared to branded products.

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"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden