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Disappoing Bike Performance Mystery
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I did a sprint yesterday, and my bike performance was a huge disappointment. I did the exact same race and bike course in the fall. I expected to ride significantly faster this time, but instead I rode almost a minute slower. I rode with exactly the same power in both races. Though, that was not entirely intentional... I was aiming to ride higher yesterday, but did not focus heavily on watching the PM on my Garmin. These are the details and changes between both races:
  • Distance: 13.8 miles, mildly rolling hills
  • Temperature: 73° F (fall), 68° F (yesterday)
  • Avg. Power: 252W (both races); 270W NP (both races)
  • Avg. HR: 153 BPM (fall), 149 BPM (yesterday)
  • Avg. Speed: 22.2 MPH (fall), 21.5 MPH (yesterday)
  • Tire Pressure: 95 PSI (yesterday), I cannot remember for the fall race
  • About 5 lbs. lighter since fall
  • Fitter since fall
  • Upgraded to Tririg cockpit from Bayonet 3 from the fall race
  • Removed down tube bottle cage since fall

I cannot remember my tire pressure in the fall race. It could have been 100 PSI or 110 PSI. So, maybe higher pressure in the prior race was a factor.

I could blame the cockpit upgrade, but I did a 60 mile bike check ride about a month ago. I averaged 21.4 MPH, including at least a couple dozen (mostly brief) stops at intersections. I was wearing a regular bike kit with a non-aero helmet. That ride should have been the lower end of my speed that I would see this season. I held my position very well in the sprint, but somewhat poorly in the check ride. Unfortunately, both my PM and my HRM crapped out for that ride, so I have no effort metrics to look back on. But, it was not as intense an RPE as the sprint.

Based on the aero improvements, my current fitness, my check ride last month, I expected to ride around 23 MPH. 21.5 MPH was a massive disappointment and it cost me winning my age group-- I finished as the first loser in my AG (2nd place).

The first things I checked after the race when I saw my time was brake rub and tire pressure. Both were fine.

The only defect I can think of is that I noticed early during yesterday's ride that my handlebars were off-center by a few degrees. It happened in transport, and I decided not to stop and correct it during the ride, because I figured that the time to stop and correct it would be greater than the impact. Do you think that <5° handlebar angle offset could have cost me more than 1 MPH in speed?

Can you think of anything else that might have cost me significant speed loss? Could a 5° F lower temperature made that much of a difference?
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Re: Disappoing Bike Performance Mystery [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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There are a multitude of things it could be, don't worry too much about it.
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Re: Disappoing Bike Performance Mystery [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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Wind conditions on the course could easily explain the difference. You could average, say, the top 10 times from your AG between the two years to see if course conditions were indeed slower.
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Re: Disappoing Bike Performance Mystery [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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What is left that I have not accounted for? It could be wind, but I do not recall any wind in either race. If there was a breeze of any kind, it would be slight. I was wearing the same tri suit and helmet. 0.7 MPH seems like a huge difference for riding the exact same average and net power on the same course in very similar conditions. If there is anything within my control that I could adjust, I would like to understand it before my HIM in a few weeks.
Last edited by: exxxviii: Apr 30, 17 11:48
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Re: Disappoing Bike Performance Mystery [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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How about putting your Strava ride into https://mywindsock.com and check the wind direction / speed?
May help, not sure.
But I would worry about it too much anyway.
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Re: Disappoing Bike Performance Mystery [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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Just some possibilities...

Different wind and/or air pressure,

AP 252 and NP 270 means there was pretty significant variability. Maybe you used the power increases in wiser in the fall race (on the uphill sections),

More slingshot drafting in the fall,

Zero offset/calibration of PM prior to both races not done (or not done the same way). Or maybe there was a drastic change in temp between the time you did the offset and the time you started the ride. HR was slightly lower yesterday. Maybe that's a result of fitness increases or lower temp. Maybe it's because your PM was reading 252 AP when you actually averaged lower AP.
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Re: Disappoing Bike Performance Mystery [Gmehje] [ In reply to ]
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Brakes rubbing?

More lap traffic last time? Did you swim better?

Wind conditions?

Same power meter? Calibration?

Same tires?

Same helmet?

Bike fit could have made you less aerodynamic if you overall "shape" isn;t as good. Meaning getting lower or longer could make you position your head different. Narrower arms might not be faster when factored in to your overall position.

Pacing? A 1.07 VI isn't a terribly smooth effort. You had the same at both races. But when specifically you applied more power vs. less power could change your bike split. Especially if there are wind and hills. 1.07 Means you had a lot of accelerations or coasting.


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http://www.trainingbible.com
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Re: Disappoing Bike Performance Mystery [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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I'd bet on wind. Most people aren't sensitive enough to feel a 5mph wind while on the bike.
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Re: Disappoing Bike Performance Mystery [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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I can't answer your question, but that strikes me as an insanely low speed for that power. How big are you?

Dimond Bikes Superfan
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Re: Disappoing Bike Performance Mystery [ericlambi] [ In reply to ]
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ericlambi wrote:
I can't answer your question, but that strikes me as an insanely low speed for that power. How big are you?

was thinking the same thing. this sounds like a position and maybe wind issue.
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Re: Disappoing Bike Performance Mystery [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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Wind, wind or maybe wind. Also, air density, PM zero incorrect/drifted, pacing given the NP/AP.

I'd say that was slow for that power, but it could be a really lumpy course.

Is the new handlebar setup identical to the old one? Same clothing?

Developing aero, fit and other fun stuff at Red is Faster
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Re: Disappoing Bike Performance Mystery [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
I'd bet on wind. Most people aren't sensitive enough to feel a 5mph wind while on the bike.

Corrected it for you.

Most people think a 5mph headwind is Kona like conditions and a 5mph tailwind is a perfectly calm day while on the bike.
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Re: Disappoing Bike Performance Mystery [motoguy128] [ In reply to ]
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motoguy128 wrote:
Brakes rubbing?

More lap traffic last time? Did you swim better?

Wind conditions?

Same power meter? Calibration?

Same tires?

Same helmet?

Bike fit could have made you less aerodynamic if you overall "shape" isn;t as good. Meaning getting lower or longer could make you position your head different. Narrower arms might not be faster when factored in to your overall position.

Pacing? A 1.07 VI isn't a terribly smooth effort. You had the same at both races. But when specifically you applied more power vs. less power could change your bike split. Especially if there are wind and hills. 1.07 Means you had a lot of accelerations or coasting.

  • Brake rubbing was the first thing I looked at. OK there.
  • I swam and ran way better. I was planning on a much faster overall performance.
  • I do not recall any wind at all in either race. Though, I will give that windsock app a try.
  • Same power meter. Calibrated the same both races.
  • Same tires and tubes.
  • Same clothing and helmet.
  • I tried to duplicate the fit as closely as possible with the new cockpit. However, in the check ride a few weeks ago with the new setup, I was much faster with similar RPE than prior rides, so that would seem to validate that if anything, the cockpit was a performance upgrade.
  • I was not concentrating on pacing that much, because it was a sprint. I did coast down a couple of the longer hills, and I pushed a little hard back up. Though, I likely rode those hills the same in the prior ride. I will try to overlay the Garmin files for both to see how I looked.
ericlambi wrote:
I can't answer your question, but that strikes me as an insanely low speed for that power. How big are you?

Yeah, this is another of my mysteries. I am about 5'-9.5" and 178 lbs. Last fall, I raced at around 183 lbs. I am losing the tonnage and hope to get to around 170 lbs. But, I am still much slower than almost everything else I have seen for a guy my size and power. I do plan to photo and video my position and submit it to the collective minds of SlowTwitch for improvements. Something in my position must be off. Either that, or I am built like a kite.
Last edited by: exxxviii: Apr 30, 17 13:55
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Re: Disappoing Bike Performance Mystery [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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James Haycraft wrote:
There are a multitude of things it could be, don't worry too much about it.
This. We've all had crappy days. Can't get the HR up, can't turn pedals, can't hit the HR zone. When it falls on race day this is what happens.
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Re: Disappoing Bike Performance Mystery [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed. That power v. speed doesn't fit. I am big at 6'2" and 200lb and can go 25 or a bit over average on 250 average power. There is something missing there.
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Re: Disappoing Bike Performance Mystery [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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Ridiculous low speed for that power. I average at least 25mph on 250w.
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Re: Disappoing Bike Performance Mystery [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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What tires/tubes did you run in both races?
Edit: Oh, and what power meter?

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Last edited by: Tom A.: Apr 30, 17 17:51
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Re: Disappoing Bike Performance Mystery [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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As others have said too many variables, especially in a sprint. Even a very light wind can make a difference. I've ridden into a headwind that I didn't know existed until I turned around. Leaves on the trees weren't even moving, yet when I turned around my speed increased and power went down. Also with the sprints I find my bike times vary depending on what wave I'm in, if it's busy out there, lots of legal drafting, if I'm first wave, I'm by myself. I always use the run as a marker as to how fit I am. If that was way out, that would have me worried, not the bike.
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Re: Disappoing Bike Performance Mystery [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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exxxviii wrote:
I did a sprint yesterday, and my bike performance was a huge disappointment. I did the exact same race and bike course in the fall. I expected to ride significantly faster this time, but instead I rode almost a minute slower. I rode with exactly the same power in both races. Though, that was not entirely intentional... I was aiming to ride higher yesterday, but did not focus heavily on watching the PM on my Garmin. These are the details and changes between both races:
  • Distance: 13.8 miles, mildly rolling hills
  • Temperature: 73° F (fall), 68° F (yesterday)
  • Avg. Power: 252W (both races); 270W NP (both races)
  • Avg. HR: 153 BPM (fall), 149 BPM (yesterday)
  • Avg. Speed: 22.2 MPH (fall), 21.5 MPH (yesterday)
  • Tire Pressure: 95 PSI (yesterday), I cannot remember for the fall race
  • About 5 lbs. lighter since fall
  • Fitter since fall
  • Upgraded to Tririg cockpit from Bayonet 3 from the fall race
  • Removed down tube bottle cage since fall

I cannot remember my tire pressure in the fall race. It could have been 100 PSI or 110 PSI. So, maybe higher pressure in the prior race was a factor.

I could blame the cockpit upgrade, but I did a 60 mile bike check ride about a month ago. I averaged 21.4 MPH, including at least a couple dozen (mostly brief) stops at intersections. I was wearing a regular bike kit with a non-aero helmet. That ride should have been the lower end of my speed that I would see this season. I held my position very well in the sprint, but somewhat poorly in the check ride. Unfortunately, both my PM and my HRM crapped out for that ride, so I have no effort metrics to look back on. But, it was not as intense an RPE as the sprint.

Based on the aero improvements, my current fitness, my check ride last month, I expected to ride around 23 MPH. 21.5 MPH was a massive disappointment and it cost me winning my age group-- I finished as the first loser in my AG (2nd place).

The first things I checked after the race when I saw my time was brake rub and tire pressure. Both were fine.

The only defect I can think of is that I noticed early during yesterday's ride that my handlebars were off-center by a few degrees. It happened in transport, and I decided not to stop and correct it during the ride, because I figured that the time to stop and correct it would be greater than the impact. Do you think that <5° handlebar angle offset could have cost me more than 1 MPH in speed?

Can you think of anything else that might have cost me significant speed loss? Could a 5° F lower temperature made that much of a difference?

  • What power meter are you using? Can you upload a screen shot of the power data charts from Trainingpeaks or whatever you use? I might be suspicious of those numbers. And if the numbers arent reliable, then everything else cant be compared. Why did the PM not work on your last training ride?
  • You say you are fitter. Does your data from training show that? You rode the identical power with a 4 BPM lower HR. That suggests a slight fitness gain. What were you seeing in training? Im asking because it might point to your power data, or possibly your HR data not being reliable (you also mentioned your HRM didnt work on your last ride.)

  • Have you checked everything else on your drive train to ensure it spins freely and isnt robbing power?
  • If you could up load all the charts from Trainingpeaks for both rides. Im wondering if you lost time on certain sections of the ride for some reason. Climbing, descending, eating or drinking, out of or into transition?
  • What bike are you riding? I dont know how much aero gain in terms of time on a sprint course youd get from moving from the bayonet to the tririg.
  • Did you carry anything extra on your bike that may have added weight? More water, bigger tool kit, anything else new?

Im guessing either your PM isnt consistant or that it was in fact a windy day. For the wind, can you check how times in the results look year over year for others. Is there a trend that last year was faster than this year?
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Re: Disappoing Bike Performance Mystery [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
What tires/tubes did you run in both races?
Edit: Oh, and what power meter?
Continental GP4K2 700x25 tires with Vittoria latex tubes front & rear
PM is a PowerTap P1. I am somewhat confident in its accuracy, because it matches within a couple watts the virtual power of my Kirt Kinetic trainer with its InRide module.
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Re: Disappoing Bike Performance Mystery [test] [ In reply to ]
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test wrote:
What power meter are you using? Can you upload a screen shot of the power data charts from Trainingpeaks or whatever you use? I might be suspicious of those numbers. And if the numbers arent reliable, then everything else cant be compared. Why did the PM not work on your last training ride?
  • You say you are fitter. Does your data from training show that? You rode the identical power with a 4 BPM lower HR. That suggests a slight fitness gain. What were you seeing in training? Im asking because it might point to your power data, or possibly your HR data not being reliable (you also mentioned your HRM didnt work on your last ride.)

  • Have you checked everything else on your drive train to ensure it spins freely and isnt robbing power?
  • If you could up load all the charts from Trainingpeaks for both rides. Im wondering if you lost time on certain sections of the ride for some reason. Climbing, descending, eating or drinking, out of or into transition?
  • What bike are you riding? I dont know how much aero gain in terms of time on a sprint course youd get from moving from the bayonet to the tririg.
  • Did you carry anything extra on your bike that may have added weight? More water, bigger tool kit, anything else new?

Im guessing either your PM isnt consistant or that it was in fact a windy day. For the wind, can you check how times in the results look year over year for others. Is there a trend that last year was faster than this year?
  • PM and HRM both crapped on the last ride because the batteries were dead. Total user error.
  • PM is a PowerTap P1 that matches the virtual power pretty well of my Kirt Kinetic trainer with InRide.
  • I am running significantly faster over all since last fall (I was 15 seconds/mile faster this time) and swimming faster. Also, outside of this ride, I am riding significantly faster (1.5 MPH faster) on a regular route I use.
  • Drivetrain feels good, so nothing obvious there. I recently replaced the crankset, chain, BB, and RD. Since those upgrades, I did the 60 mile check ride three weeks ago and hit that 12.5 MPH average I noted.
  • Uploaded power charts from Garmin pictured below. First is the 2016 race and second is the 2017. (Well, never mind... I went to post the pictures, but the option is gone from the editor. Heck, it does not even have the option anymore to link to another picture site.)
  • Bike was a Felt IA16 with 60/90 Flo CC wheels.
  • Bike was lighter yesterday. The drivetrain and Tririg upgrades cut about 830g from the fall race.

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Re: Disappoing Bike Performance Mystery [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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Bike fit.

Robert Driskell
Certified Master Body Geometry fit Technician
Certified Master Retul Fit Technician
Zipp Service Course Specialist
Bikes Plus Pensacola Florida
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Re: Disappoing Bike Performance Mystery [test] [ In reply to ]
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So, I just discovered Strava's compare segment feature, and I know exactly how I failed. It was massively epic riding tactics failure. I lost almost all of the time in the first 1/2 mile of the ride... on the road out of the park. I earned a little of the gap back, but then I lost that again on the ride back in.

I was futzing with my pedal on the way out, and then I guess I just did not push very hard after getting snapped in. I was not aware of the significance at that time. Then, on the way in, I fumbled getting my foot out of my shoe, and I did it too early. The thing that truly sucks about this is that I started the bike alongside the guy who won the AG, and I saw him leave as I was fumbling with my shoes. I assumed that I would catch him, because I always catch people on the bike. But this time he rode as my equal. If I had been smoother at the start, I would either have kept him in sight or passed him on the bike. And, I had more to give on the bike if I wanted to. I beat him on the run by about a minute, so if I had him in sight in T2, I would likely have won the race between us.


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Re: Disappoing Bike Performance Mystery [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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You might find bestbikesplit of interest.

If the course isn't already available you can upload it from a .fit (plus you could estimate cda with the aero analyser)

With the course loaded the impact of power/weight/cda on time can be played with (weather also, but a little more complicated)
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Re: Disappoing Bike Performance Mystery [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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Hello all,
So funny story. The other day, I bought a Felt Bayonet Aerobar for a great price from a guy on this forum who was super nice and helpful. The bar arrived and looks great, and I can't wait to get it on my bike...

Anyway, I'm reading this post and thinking, "Hey I just bought one of those, and if it's at least as good as a Tririg, it's pretty good."

Then I look at the OP and see it's the same guy who just sold me the Felt bar.

so ... are you going to need your Aerobar back?
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