USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread (Page 17): Triathlon Forum: Slowtwitch Forums

Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [mattreg3] [ In reply to ]

Oct 10, 12 16:04

I've been reading through the "Reasoned Decision" document on the USADA website. I came to the part where they talk about Actovegin - apparently all of the 2000 USPS team was being injected with it in order to "enhance oxygen circulation and improve recovery". USADA says that it is not currently banned and is not a doping violation, but talks about it to point out how readily the USPS team lied to the French law enforcement investigation about it. I understand the point they are trying to make about Lance's credibility. I am curious about Actovegin:

Does it actually work? It seems like USPS team had a lot of knowledge on what did and didn't work, and they were using it, but I don't see it advertised anywhere and I don't hear about people using it. Did they stop using it because HGH or something else was much better? Does "not currently banned" mean that it might be banned sometime in the future or was banned at some point in the past?

Re: Daniel Coyle tweet [Francois] [ In reply to ]

jaws20

Oct 10, 12 16:11

Post #402 of 1580 (21178 views)

But GH and Levi competed in this year's TOF and GH was celebrated for his longevity.

Suspending him (them?) after the fact rings hollow.

It also should not take months, etc., to suspend them indefinitely pending a final determination of what the appropriate punishment should be. Don't want to run in circles. The whole thing looks like a joke as does the entire sport. Sad for me because I've been a cycling fan for decades.

Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [BradHammond] [ In reply to ]

Francois

Oct 10, 12 16:13

Post #403 of 1580 (21165 views)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...d%20blood%20fraction

Re: Daniel Coyle tweet [TriTrev] [ In reply to ]

53x12

Oct 10, 12 16:18

Post #404 of 1580 (21125 views)

TriTrev wrote:

If.....you a proven doper, because you confessed, you should be suspended immediately....but instead of being suspended you are allowed to continue riding as if nothing happened...you are taking a position on a team/or a race start away from someone that is clean....adversely affecting that clean rider. How do you think the rookie rider feels that was denied a start in the Tour because one of these riders took a team spot.....that rookie might never get another chance, he may have been a contender someday, but the USADA took that day away....Its a professional sport, what have you done for us lately mentality for team selection, riders were denied the chance to do something....there were clean, why should the USADA do that to them?...what gave the USADA the right to affect clean riders this way, to have half a season, or more be poisoned by proven dopers ?...they are supposed to keep the sport clean, not assist dopers, and that they did, did G. H. not have "his day", his last race day, to be cheered as a "clean rider" as he crossed the finish, as people celebrated his "great career", which as the USADA knew was based on doping, according to their own documents released today....are you ok with that ?... because I'm not, and I'm sure a lot of people from that day, have a sour taste in their mouth from cheering him home....when he should have been suspended, the evidence was there, from his own mouth, and from others.

Yes there can be redemption, you will always have been "dirty", but only if you accept what you have done, and serve your time......David Millar is an example, 2 years, no soft 6 month "back suspension", 2 real years, with no money coming in, sleeping on couches, owned up to what he did, and lives with that "did drugs" label, worked damn hard to come back clean.....but not these guys, not if they get a 6 month backdated suspension, carry on next year, as suggested......it stinks, its not fair.

Bravo sir. Bravo.

Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [Devlin] [ In reply to ]

furiousferret

Oct 10, 12 16:19

Post #405 of 1580 (21121 views)

Devlin wrote:

furiousferret wrote:

USADA and sports in general just need to create an amnesty period up to 2006; until then we are going to keep hearing about these scandals well into the next decade because I doubt even half of what actually happened is out.

Why 2006?

John

A line has to be put somewhere in the sand.

Re: Daniel Coyle tweet [Francois] [ In reply to ]

53x12

Oct 10, 12 16:20

Post #406 of 1580 (21111 views)

Francois wrote:

I love how Tim Herman goes out of his way on ESPN to go off track and mention old stuff for which there is new evidence...
This is just total PR bullshit.

What USADA put out there isn't PR spin either? No of course not. Don't worry, I responded for you so you don't need to.

Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [Francois] [ In reply to ]

53x12

Oct 10, 12 16:22

Post #407 of 1580 (21087 views)

Francois wrote:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...d%20blood%20fraction

So it took science 11 years after the fact to determine what LA did actually worked? Give LA the noble prize!

Re: Daniel Coyle tweet [fusilibob] [ In reply to ]

Robert

Oct 10, 12 16:28

Post #408 of 1580 (21040 views)

Exactly right. All these guys have essentially thrown each other under the bus. And why? To do the right thing? Hincapie's statement is just so much PC drivel. I'm very sorry to hear he took drugs, but I'm even sorrier to hear he squeeled like a stuck pig because it was the right thing.

And how many of these BIKE RACERS actually knew the chemical composition of what they were taking? 99.9% of ST-ers have no clue what's really in that bottle of pills they take. Unless you do a chemical analysis before you take the drug, then you really DON'T HAVE A BLOODY CLUE what you are taking. I could give a little purple pill to almost any guy here and he'd swear he was getting the hardest erections of his life, even though it was simply a placebo. When a case comes down to BIKE RACERS testifying what they take you know the fix is in, and desperation is the order of the day.

-Robert

"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [53x12] [ In reply to ]

Francois

Oct 10, 12 16:32

Post #409 of 1580 (21008 views)

It's Nobel prize not noble.
Research was already published on the topic way before. I just linked the most recent one.

Re: Daniel Coyle tweet [53x12] [ In reply to ]

Francois

Oct 10, 12 16:33

Post #410 of 1580 (20999 views)

No. It's a lot of facts. But I doubt you can tell the difference. You're in the flat earth club clearly.

Re: Daniel Coyle tweet [ In reply to ]

nedbraden

Oct 10, 12 16:38

Post #411 of 1580 (20959 views)

I am still trying to understand the logic someone posted that a kid thinking of doping to make it as a pro would be more affected by LA getting nailed now (someone whose last wins were probably before the kid started seriously racing) then by one of today's stars getting nailed.

I also am having great laughs at Francois touting his buddies as the bastions of truth who never exaggerated or made talk of LA personal while claiming LA fans always did that. Oh, and I like his blatantly false claim that LA was offered the same deal. LA was offered a deal, which included a longer ban then what has been rumored for the guys named today and it had a forfeiture of titles included.

Best post here is the one pointing out the damage done by allowing these guys to race and look clean until the end of the season.

Re: Daniel Coyle tweet [53x12] [ In reply to ]

Power13

Oct 10, 12 16:38

Post #412 of 1580 (20957 views)

53x12 wrote:

TriTrev wrote:

Bravo sir. Bravo.

Not so fast....while I agree with some of the points raised here (Hncapie given his moment in the sun in CO, etc) the reality is that earlier suspensions were not logistically feasible.

The USADA was still assembling its case and had not made any final determinations. If they suspended each rider immediately after their interviews / confessions, they ran the risk of dooming their own investigation.

And we should also remember that these riders were prevented from riding in the Olympics and WC races, so it isn't like they got off scott free before the admissions were announced. Small potatoes admittedly, but at least something.

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [aarondavidson] [ In reply to ]

dwesley

Oct 10, 12 16:38

Post #413 of 1580 (20956 views)

No one's yet brought up the email thread between LA, Ferrari's son, and Schumi. Toward the end (starting pg. 59 or 60) they start discussing Ironman and what is required to win. Funny that the tri forum hasn't been all over this.

There's also a name of a triathlete, which I won't repeat here. And in case someone feels the need to "out" him - note they just specify his training volume, nothing else.

For reference: http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/JR+Exhibit+A.pdf

Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [Francois] [ In reply to ]

53x12

Oct 10, 12 16:40

Post #414 of 1580 (20940 views)

Francois wrote:

It's Nobel prize not noble.

Sorry for my typo on my iPhone. I will make sure to point out each and every typo you make. To start out with it is Francis and no Francois.

Re: Daniel Coyle tweet [Francois] [ In reply to ]

53x12

Oct 10, 12 16:43

Post #415 of 1580 (20907 views)

Francois wrote:

No. It's a lot of facts. But I doubt you can tell the difference. You're in the flat earth club clearly.

You are so bigoted that you can't tell the difference either and are the leader of the wanker club.

Re: Daniel Coyle tweet [Devlin] [ In reply to ]

Koz

Oct 10, 12 16:50

Post #416 of 1580 (20841 views)

Taking a left turn here, but working on that thought...
I am curious to see how the UCI handles any sentencing USADA hands down as punishment to the 26. Public perception could swing all over the map. If UCI upholds USADA's sentencing, do they lose all teeth? If it's a short suspension, are they still able to point a finger at USADA and say, "See? They let dopers off easy." If it's a long suspension, is UCI just viewed as trying to distance themselves from the bad guys? Would it be worse or better if they enforced a longer suspension than USADA suggested? They certainly wouldn't shorten anything USADA levied, would they? That would be weird...although, it might allow them to tout the amnesty angle.

Regardless, you know we won't hear about it until 20.9999 days from now, since UCI's decision is due in 21 and no one in this process could ever be accused of doing anything in a timely manner.

On a side note, and having not had the time to read the Reasoned Decision, I haven't yet read one post alluding to any wording in the document regarding the LA/UCI monetary/conspiracy tie that many were spreading through the rumor mill earlier. At least they seem to have so far survived that kind of falling axe.

Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [BradHammond] [ In reply to ]

Magwister

Oct 10, 12 16:52

Post #417 of 1580 (20822 views)

It's illegal to be sold or imported into North America. There is also very little data showing it has any performance enhancing benefit...most studies purporting it to be good are in really poor journals. From WADA:

It has not changed from last year and Actovegin is not prohibited in sport under the WADA List except if it is used by intravenous infusion.
Intravenous infusions are prohibited according to section M2 (Chemical and Physical Manipulation) of the List.
Intravenous injections with a simple syringe are permitted if the injected substance is not prohibited, the volume does not exceed 50 mL, and the intravenous injections are given at intervals equal or greater than six hours.
(Additional information can be found in the Medical Information on Intravenous Infusion, availablehere.)
Actovegin is a deproteinized ultrafiltrate of calf serum and does not contain blood cells susceptible to increase oxygen transport. It was tested by anti-doping laboratories and no growth hormone or prohibited hormones were found.
However, WADA is aware of its use in some sports, possibly in conjunction with other substances that may be prohibited. WADA will therefore continue to closely monitor Actovegin.

http://www.theroar.com.au/...ster-or-just-a-sham/

Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [dwesley] [ In reply to ]

MKirk

Oct 10, 12 16:58

Post #418 of 1580 (20761 views)

dwesley wrote:

I read the emails and unless I'm missing the secret hidden code......All I read is some chit chat about training for Tri's?? Nothing more, nothing less. Not worth reading.

Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [furiousferret] [ In reply to ]

Devlin

Oct 10, 12 17:09

Post #419 of 1580 (20686 views)

furiousferret wrote:

Devlin wrote:

furiousferret wrote:

Why 2006?

John

A line has to be put somewhere in the sand.

How convenient that line is the first year that LA wasn't in the peloton.

John

Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [MKirk] [ In reply to ]

Magwister

Oct 10, 12 17:13

Post #420 of 1580 (20657 views)

I don't know, but the bit where the son says 'yes, Schumi followed 'O. B.'....' I would take as meaning something else.

Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [53x12] [ In reply to ]

Devlin

Oct 10, 12 17:14

Post #421 of 1580 (20648 views)

53x12 wrote:

Francois wrote:

It's Nobel prize not noble.

Sorry for my typo on my iPhone. I will make sure to point out each and every typo you make. To start out with it is Francis and no Francois.

*not

John (Sorry, couldn't resist)

Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [Magwister] [ In reply to ]

Devlin

Oct 10, 12 17:18

Post #422 of 1580 (20599 views)

I keep seeing references to 6 months as the ban, I'm not seeing where they announced the length of the suspensions? Or did it go by somewhere and I missed it?

John

Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [Devlin] [ In reply to ]

eganski

Oct 10, 12 17:25

Post #423 of 1580 (20539 views)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/...eive-bans-from-usada

Re: Daniel Coyle tweet [Francois] [ In reply to ]

H-

Oct 10, 12 17:26

Post #424 of 1580 (21025 views)

Francois wrote:

The suspensions for his teammates haven't been announced yet.

From Cylingnews :

Leipheimer accepted a suspension from September 1 and was disqualified from results from June 1999 to July 30, 2006, and from July 7 to July 29, 2007.
Hincapie accepted a suspension from September 1 and disqualification from results from May 31, 2004 to July 31, 2006.
Vande Velde accepted a suspension from September 9 and disqualification from results from June 4, 2004 to April 31, 2006.
Zabriskie accepted a suspension from September 1 and disqualification from results from May 31, 2003 to July 31, 2006.
Danielson accepted a suspension from September 1 and disqualification from results from March 1, 2005 to September 23, 2006.
Barry accepted a suspension from September 10 and disqualification from results from May 13, 2003 to July 31, 2006.
All declined to participate in the 2012 Olympic Games and were praised by USADA for confessing and accepting their suspensions.

//
So Levi took the worst hit. Gave up his 2007 TDF podium.

________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [Devlin] [ In reply to ]

ttram

Oct 10, 12 17:26

Post #425 of 1580 (21025 views)

Its on Cyclingnews- most start at Sept. 1st and go 6 months...

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