Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Aug 31, 14 5:52

Post #26 of 74 (4671 views)

Regarding the "Arab Spring"

Has anyone ever considered that there is a reason that ENTIRE REIGON of the world does not have democracy and fair and equatable treatemnt of people who live there???

That reason is not the idea attached to the failed theory of "NATION BUILDING" in which we show up like a traveling salesman and give a demonstration on how a living breathing democratic nation works with a constutional government.

The host nation collectavle says "oh wow how wonderful!!!!" And then immediatly adopts a new and wonderfull way of life.

These parts of the world are aware of what democratic government is. The people in charge AND the vast majority of the population DO NOT WANT democracy, fair and equatable treatment for everyone in their "country" civil rights for women and minorities in their country and any type of civilization that has progressed beyond the 17th century.

Most Arab states are not even real countries. They are lines drawn on a map around realestate to eother include or exclude valuable areas because of oil reserves.

100 years ago Before oil was discovered in that part of the world these "countries" did not exist. There were tribes, clans and family bands riding around on horses and calels cutting off each others heads with swords. In my extremley biased view not much has changed except they have augmented their way of life with some western trappings.

Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Aug 31, 14 5:59

Post #27 of 74 (4663 views)

World politics aren't a simple as some folks on here seem to believe. This isn't a playground, where you can simply choose not to play with a kid you don't like or the bully you want to avoid. There are countries all over the Middle East, Africa, Europe and Asia whom we strongly disagree with as a nation. When I was in Afghanistan, there was a unit from Jordan, one of our allies, on Kandahar to help support the NATO mission. Some of the things they did, were disgusting and appalling on the deepest level. Yet they're our allies and we worked with them.

If you don't want to support Muslim countries, never go to a gas station again. Don't buy any product with plastic in it, or any other product containing petroleum byproducts (which is almost everything). The hypocrites who are bashing Dan for this article are equally guilty for supporting Bahrain and other similar governments. While the majority of the hydrocarbon utilized in the US & Canada is domestic, we still send a huge amount of money to those countries in exchange for oil.

Yes, many of these countries actions make us feel uncomfortable. I don't like it either. But if we can't help support the more progressive of the Muslim countries and build alliances in the area, then we will instead end up with an entire region of enemies. We can't expect them to progress to Western standards overnight...or even ever, considering how deeply their standards are based on Islam. But turning our backs on Bahrain, Jordan, Azerbaijan, etc., is a guaranteed way to ensure they never make any progress.

Anyway, it's great to have a serious debate about this. I'd just like to see those critical of Dan provide some real input and not just attacks.

-Andrew

Re: Bahrain politics [Toby] [ In reply to ]

Aug 31, 14 6:24

Post #28 of 74 (4639 views)

Toby wrote:

devashish_paul wrote:

Where do you cut the line?

I don't think it's too hard, or unreasonable, to draw a line that exists somewhere between "a couple of hundred years ago" and "now". Claiming that we, as a country, are no better than another on human rights is absurd. That would be like saying England is our enemy now because we fought them in the the War of 1812.

Yes, but don't you think that we would have a hard time cutting the line even today? All those cheap goods we buy at Walmart, or our mobile phones put together by migrant workers over at Foxconn for pennies per hour. How much do we have a part in that. Or the pollution in the Pearl River Delta? Is that a problem China created, or are we really the root cause of the problem. You see, we're often engaged just as badly as the root reason why others treat our fellow humans badly. Using the gauge of not reporting on the Bahraini tri, we should have not reported on the Beijing Olympics either and I am sure there are some polynesian groups who don't like that we have occupied the big island of Kona and run around there every October in lycra. Why are we even competing against Russian athletes. They were just racing at the ITU WC championships as well as at the US Open.

Let the athletes play, let's cover the races, and let's use sport to positively affect change. Actually boycotting sport, as others have pointed out, does less to forward positive momentum in human relations than going ahead and racing/playing. For those of us whose friends were unable to race at the 1980 Moscow Olympics, or those who were the prisoners inside their own Apartheid regime unable to compete internationally, we know their story. Fortunately we managed to get the likes of Zola Budd, Simon Lessing, or a bit later Frankie Fredricks (able to sprint for Independent Namibia and won 4 Olympic Silvers), all or whom would have not been able to compete in the apartheid years. Later black men would be instrumental in bringing the Rugby World Cup back to South Africa and Mandela was adamant that they keep the Springbok name for the team. In 1994, I shared a hotel (Team Canada and Team South Africa) in New Zealand at the ITU Worlds. It was one of the first championships where the South Africans had a full team. Frankly I would say I was a bit cautious to engage as I did not know what to expect (being a person who is not white and the media had made them all to be racist pricks.....which was far from reality). I was floored by how welcoming they were. At one point, one wise guy Canadian, in an open lobby asked the South Africans, "Where are all the black guys on your time?". With instant wit and auto fire and without hesitation he replied back, "Where are all the black guys on the Canadian team"....and he was right.

The point is, it is just to easy to judge individuals and paint entire societies and it is really really difficult to know where to draw the line. I won't draw the line, in China because I have many good friends and business associates in that country. For everything we see being bad in China, they can list something that we're screwing the world on. Does not mean I like everything there, and I certainly don't like all aspects of the Middle East.

Having spent the early part of my life as a servicemen, with the goal of killing the guy on the other side of the ideology, my wish in life, is that humans can get along better and treat each other with respect and dignity. I feel, I can do more in my life through sport than I could programming computers of F-18 to fire armament for widespread mutilating destruction.

So I want Slowman to cover pretty well every tri on the planet. It is our community's tool to build bridges. I've been on the positive side of sport building bridges myself all over the world and seen the positive fruit.

Re: Bahrain politics [AndrewPhx] [ In reply to ]

Aug 31, 14 7:29

Post #29 of 74 (4601 views)

from what i understand, oil pumped out of the ground represents maybe a tenth of bahrain's GDP and that is expected to run out in about a decade. yes, they do produce natural gas.

they do make a significant amount of money off petroleum, but much of that is in refining. you can produce no oil at all and still be a significant refiner. natural gas, refining, aluminum production, banking and finance are the basis of its economy.

so, does bahrain pump oil? yes. about the same amount as south korea and cuba. a little more than poland. a little less than the netherlands and new zealand. it would take 70 bahrains to pump as much oil as it's neighbor the UAE.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Aug 31, 14 8:40

Post #30 of 74 (4556 views)

when my grandfather moved from ireland to london in the early 1960's as a migrant laborer (he was a carpenter) it was not at all uncommon to see signs in boarding houses that said "no blacks, no dogs, no irish".

That was close to 100 years after the start of the suffragette movement, women getting the vote 1916-17 and emily dickinson throwing herself under one of the kings horses.

I've lived in the GCC for four years now, I work for a large organisation, I am a sponsored worker in a slightly more conservative state than Bahrain.

My experience in the past four years of the nationals who I have met and with whom I work - both male and female, has been positive, as has my wifes. That said we have friends who have not had the same experience, or have felt differently about the experience they have had. This is not to say that we do not see the media, or first hand, many of the things that appear in the papers, or that we are naive about the life many individuals have.

That said, I dont think any of the members of the GCC would meet the "slowtwitch doctrine" test, none of them are naive enough to think that they can somehow avoid media scrutiny by buying it off or stopping something from being reported. One only has to look at the long list of things that have come out in recent years to realise that whilst they might not want things in the media they cant stop it. See MOMA in Abu Dhabi, the World Cup, Zaha Hadid, F1 in Bahrain.

I've been here for four years, and in that time the place has changed immeasurably, but thats a tiny fraction of the length of time that cities such as London, NY or Paris have taken to evolve and it needs to be recognised that these countries are very young (ignoring a debate about how borders were set out), that they came in to a ton of cash, that the ability to spend the cash outpaces the ability to develop structures within which to spend it in a controlled way; health and safety, industrial regulations, environmental legislation and thats ignoring how long societies take to change their views on "blacks, dogs and irish" as the signs in london boarding houses used to say.

Today it would be a complete anathema to see a sign like this, but it was only 40-50 years ago that racial discrimination was not just accepted but positively encouraged in the media with comedy shows - certainly in the UK - playing up all the stereotypes.

I dont think there is any doubt that there is work to be done - but it wont change by failing to engage with people.

On a slightly separate note - I think Dan's example of the conflict between supporting a ruling minority which support womens rights and allowing a democratic party which oppose it is bang on the money. These are not straightforward issues in the region, many of these countries leaders, are young, well educated - usually in the west, almost all the young males have been to Sandhurst, they are not unfamiliar with western values but at the same time they are having to juggle the wishes of conservatives who think the region is liberalising to quickly and progressives who think its not going fast enough and which ever path they choose, you can rest assured someone within the country and many without will be annoyed.

Last edited by: Andrewmc: Aug 31, 14 8:53

Re: Bahrain politics [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]

Aug 31, 14 9:33

Post #31 of 74 (4519 views)

Bahrain not only brutally suppressed protestors, they even arrested doctors and nurses who treated the injured protestors, Bahrain is as bad as it gets, only reason its not syria is because they and their allies have the cash to pay off the right people, plus its shias protesting who ISIS hates, just because they are more progressive than many in the region doesnt change things, the reason you dont hear about them more is that as dan stated, they have U.S. military bases on their land and have gas, the U.S. government will not say anything bad about them except things like how they are "deeply concerned". the compliant U.S. media then barely says anything about it too, all anyone wants to do is tell us how bad Iran is, Iran is the most enlightened country in the region, they unlike the gulf states/U.S. client states dont just sit back and do everything the U.S. tells them to, so that makes them evil apparently while the gulf state monarchies fund terror groups or dont do anything about their citizens funding terror groups, as for the triathlon, its up to each person, that military base is in such a strategic location that nothing is going to change in u.s. policy, so a boycott of bahrain wont do much

Re: Bahrain politics [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Aug 31, 14 9:47

Post #32 of 74 (4504 views)

devashish_paul wrote:

Toby wrote:

devashish_paul wrote:

Where do you cut the line?

I don't think it's too hard, or unreasonable, to draw a line that exists somewhere between "a couple of hundred years ago" and "now". Claiming that we, as a country, are no better than another on human rights is absurd. That would be like saying England is our enemy now because we fought them in the the War of 1812.

Yes, but don't you think that we would have a hard time cutting the line even today? All those cheap goods we buy at Walmart, or our mobile phones put together by migrant workers over at Foxconn for pennies per hour. How much do we have a part in that. Or the pollution in the Pearl River Delta? Is that a problem China created, or are we really the root cause of the problem. You see, we're often engaged just as badly as the root reason why others treat our fellow humans badly. Using the gauge of not reporting on the Bahraini tri, we should have not reported on the Beijing Olympics either and I am sure there are some polynesian groups who don't like that we have occupied the big island of Kona and run around there every October in lycra. Why are we even competing against Russian athletes. They were just racing at the ITU WC championships as well as at the US Open.

Let the athletes play, let's cover the races, and let's use sport to positively affect change. Actually boycotting sport, as others have pointed out, does less to forward positive momentum in human relations than going ahead and racing/playing. For those of us whose friends were unable to race at the 1980 Moscow Olympics, or those who were the prisoners inside their own Apartheid regime unable to compete internationally, we know their story. Fortunately we managed to get the likes of Zola Budd, Simon Lessing, or a bit later Frankie Fredricks (able to sprint for Independent Namibia and won 4 Olympic Silvers), all or whom would have not been able to compete in the apartheid years. Later black men would be instrumental in bringing the Rugby World Cup back to South Africa and Mandela was adamant that they keep the Springbok name for the team. In 1994, I shared a hotel (Team Canada and Team South Africa) in New Zealand at the ITU Worlds. It was one of the first championships where the South Africans had a full team. Frankly I would say I was a bit cautious to engage as I did not know what to expect (being a person who is not white and the media had made them all to be racist pricks.....which was far from reality). I was floored by how welcoming they were. At one point, one wise guy Canadian, in an open lobby asked the South Africans, "Where are all the black guys on your time?". With instant wit and auto fire and without hesitation he replied back, "Where are all the black guys on the Canadian team"....and he was right.

The point is, it is just to easy to judge individuals and paint entire societies and it is really really difficult to know where to draw the line. I won't draw the line, in China because I have many good friends and business associates in that country. For everything we see being bad in China, they can list something that we're screwing the world on. Does not mean I like everything there, and I certainly don't like all aspects of the Middle East.

Having spent the early part of my life as a servicemen, with the goal of killing the guy on the other side of the ideology, my wish in life, is that humans can get along better and treat each other with respect and dignity. I feel, I can do more in my life through sport than I could programming computers of F-18 to fire armament for widespread mutilating destruction.

So I want Slowman to cover pretty well every tri on the planet. It is our community's tool to build bridges. I've been on the positive side of sport building bridges myself all over the world and seen the positive fruit.

I do thoroughly agree that boycotting a sporting event is pointless, and more openness helps more than less in any such circumstance (look at the difference between North Korea and Vietnam, for example), but I was strictly responding to your position that it was too hard to "draw the line". It really, really isn't - there's a world of difference between an action taken by a current member of the ruling family and historical actions. Claiming otherwise is tantamount to sons being responsible for the sins of their fathers. Yes, Americans have done awful things, especially in the past, with the Trail of Tears and the Japanese internment camps being but two example. Nonetheless, the people who made those decisions have not been in charge for a long time, and are, of course, mostly if not all dead even in the latter case. Am I, as an American, responsible for that? Was Bush, or is Obama, who whoever comes next? If not, there's a very clear line. If so... that's troubling (and we need to go back and re-invade Germany, and England, and France). The ease and clarity of the line was my only point.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

Re: Bahrain politics [Toby] [ In reply to ]

Aug 31, 14 10:11

Post #33 of 74 (4474 views)

Toby wrote:

devashish_paul wrote:

Toby wrote:

devashish_paul wrote:

Where do you cut the line?

I don't think it's too hard, or unreasonable, to draw a line that exists somewhere between "a couple of hundred years ago" and "now". Claiming that we, as a country, are no better than another on human rights is absurd. That would be like saying England is our enemy now because we fought them in the the War of 1812.

Yes, but don't you think that we would have a hard time cutting the line even today? All those cheap goods we buy at Walmart, or our mobile phones put together by migrant workers over at Foxconn for pennies per hour. How much do we have a part in that. Or the pollution in the Pearl River Delta? Is that a problem China created, or are we really the root cause of the problem. You see, we're often engaged just as badly as the root reason why others treat our fellow humans badly. Using the gauge of not reporting on the Bahraini tri, we should have not reported on the Beijing Olympics either and I am sure there are some polynesian groups who don't like that we have occupied the big island of Kona and run around there every October in lycra. Why are we even competing against Russian athletes. They were just racing at the ITU WC championships as well as at the US Open.

Let the athletes play, let's cover the races, and let's use sport to positively affect change. Actually boycotting sport, as others have pointed out, does less to forward positive momentum in human relations than going ahead and racing/playing. For those of us whose friends were unable to race at the 1980 Moscow Olympics, or those who were the prisoners inside their own Apartheid regime unable to compete internationally, we know their story. Fortunately we managed to get the likes of Zola Budd, Simon Lessing, or a bit later Frankie Fredricks (able to sprint for Independent Namibia and won 4 Olympic Silvers), all or whom would have not been able to compete in the apartheid years. Later black men would be instrumental in bringing the Rugby World Cup back to South Africa and Mandela was adamant that they keep the Springbok name for the team. In 1994, I shared a hotel (Team Canada and Team South Africa) in New Zealand at the ITU Worlds. It was one of the first championships where the South Africans had a full team. Frankly I would say I was a bit cautious to engage as I did not know what to expect (being a person who is not white and the media had made them all to be racist pricks.....which was far from reality). I was floored by how welcoming they were. At one point, one wise guy Canadian, in an open lobby asked the South Africans, "Where are all the black guys on your time?". With instant wit and auto fire and without hesitation he replied back, "Where are all the black guys on the Canadian team"....and he was right.

The point is, it is just to easy to judge individuals and paint entire societies and it is really really difficult to know where to draw the line. I won't draw the line, in China because I have many good friends and business associates in that country. For everything we see being bad in China, they can list something that we're screwing the world on. Does not mean I like everything there, and I certainly don't like all aspects of the Middle East.

Having spent the early part of my life as a servicemen, with the goal of killing the guy on the other side of the ideology, my wish in life, is that humans can get along better and treat each other with respect and dignity. I feel, I can do more in my life through sport than I could programming computers of F-18 to fire armament for widespread mutilating destruction.

So I want Slowman to cover pretty well every tri on the planet. It is our community's tool to build bridges. I've been on the positive side of sport building bridges myself all over the world and seen the positive fruit.

I do thoroughly agree that boycotting a sporting event is pointless, and more openness helps more than less in any such circumstance (look at the difference between North Korea and Vietnam, for example), but I was strictly responding to your position that it was too hard to "draw the line". It really, really isn't - there's a world of difference between an action taken by a current member of the ruling family and historical actions. Claiming otherwise is tantamount to sons being responsible for the sins of their fathers. Yes, Americans have done awful things, especially in the past, with the Trail of Tears and the Japanese internment camps being but two example. Nonetheless, the people who made those decisions have not been in charge for a long time, and are, of course, mostly if not all dead even in the latter case. Am I, as an American, responsible for that? Was Bush, or is Obama, who whoever comes next? If not, there's a very clear line. If so... that's troubling (and we need to go back and re-invade Germany, and England, and France). The ease and clarity of the line was my only point.

I know what you are saying. But as an example I was a serviceman when Canadian Soldiers, beat and tortured Somali teens. That was just a short time ago, and in the same year, lots of athletes came and raced in Canada at Ironman Canada or ITU races in our country. Should people from other countries boycott the races in Canada simply because I was from the same organization from which one of the members conducted said beatings that were all over the national/international media? The point, is even right today (likely right now), no country is immune from their citizens doing bad things. That's really my point in terms of drawing the line. We might not like what is happening in some Gulf states while others in that part of the world might not like what is going on Missouri. I suppose the question is whether the ruling clan in Bahrain is just using sport as a PR screen (in the vein of the 1936 Olympics as Dan pointed out) or do they truly want to use sport for the betterment of society. If it is the latter, then sport in their country may co exist with some bad guy behavior by officials of the government as it does in your country or mine but hopefully we all can use sport to build bridges, set examples, exchange thoughts and concepts, and perhaps learn from each other.

I am not sure that western style democracy works in every society (or is appropriate given the culture and religious doctrines of each place) so for us to project that this is the way to roll may not be totally appropriate (yet). Amazingly it works to some degree in India (at least all governments have been elected by universal suffrage since 1947), while a few kilometers next door it does not work that well in Pakistan where they seem to have their periodic military coups that you can time like Haley's comet, albeit far more frequently. Societies morph, change and potentially advance over time. It's almost 400 years that English society has advanced since the time of Oliver Cromwell, but if you look at him from the perspective of Irish or Scottish history, the man was responsible for some of the largest genocides, but was hailed as a fairly heroic figure by many English historians. Sometimes, it depends on which side you are looking at things from, and whose history and politics one wants to read/interpret/believe.

Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Aug 31, 14 10:31

Post #34 of 74 (4454 views)

Just a general thought to this thread.

It appears that Bahrain has already had something like 3 triathlons per year. I hope we can all agree that this is a good development. Next step for any local community is to host a bigger triathlon. They are doing that, and pulling in the international community seemingly to help raise the profile of triathlon locally. We had the same effect in Mont Tremblant. They had local events there for years, and not that many local athletes even bothered racing. Then they brought Ironman in, and we have 3000 athletes, both local and international racing there 2x per year. Having the big event in Tremblant is getting our people off the couch and signing up to race an Ironman.

If for a moment we put politics aside and just look at the triathlon development side of things, pulling a big Challenge event, should raise the profile of the sport both locally and internationally, hopefully pulling more local athletes in to play. We can agree this is a good thing from a sport development angle. Should people in other cultures be deprived of the opportunity for our sport to have a big presence in their neighbourhood. When Ironman Lake Placid was put in LP, local IM participation grew exponentially. No more need to get on a plane and fly to Penticton. Same deal in Madison, or Panama City, or Tremblant etc. Bahrain is getting their turn.

Re: Bahrain politics [monty] [ In reply to ]

Aug 31, 14 10:39

Post #35 of 74 (4443 views)

I think you mis-understood what I said was absurd. I agree with you that US athletes participate in competitions in countries with records of human rights abuses as bad as Bahrain. But some, including Dan, have asked whether we have the moral standing to criticize Bahrain when we ourselves are not perfect. And perfect we certainly are not. But the thing is, no one is perfect, so if we go by that logic, then no one can criticize abuses by anyone else. The US is better than virtually any major power in the history of the world when it comes to respecting individual rights and freedoms. If we cannot criticize the brutal treatment of peaceful promoters of democracy by members of the royal family who are above the law, then who can? There needs to be a balancing force in the world.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Aug 31, 14 10:46

Post #36 of 74 (4435 views)

I'm not advocating that we boycott the race or that Slowtwitch does not cover it. But many are making the argument that having various athletes come together and race in Bahrain will promote better treatment of its citizens. If we do not engage them in the controversial issues, I do not see how change could be made. So I say, yes, let's race, let's cover it, let the different people of the world interact, but let's also ask the hard questions - even though it makes them and us uncomfortable. Otherwise all we are doing is giving them our stamp of approval and promoting the status quo.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Re: Bahrain politics [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Aug 31, 14 10:50

Post #37 of 74 (4430 views)

did you know that 400 people showed up for the national triathlon championships this year? in iran? for just over $200 you can fly round trip between the countries. i wonder what would happen a bunch of triathletes from both iran and israel happened to show up at challenge bahrain. you might think this a naive dream, but do you know that for the past 5 years, until last year, bahrain's ambassador to the united states was a jewish woman?

if we can have been diplomacy i don't know why we can have triathlon diplomacy.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: Bahrain politics [TheGupster] [ In reply to ]

Aug 31, 14 10:55

Post #38 of 74 (4422 views)

TheGupster wrote:

RowToTri wrote:

After being rebuffed on the front page article has a "hit and run" I am coming here. So, I see the question as "should we support the Bahraini royal family members who seem to love triathlon so much?". The fact is, Nasser bin Hamad Al Khalifa, one of the prime members of the royal family triathlon team - Saqer even mentioned him in the article - personally locked up and beat members of the Bahraini sports teams (which he oversees) for participating in a peaceful protest for democracy. Attempting to create a moral equivalency between that and the failures of the US to sometimes live up to our ideals is absurd. Could you imagine the son of a president of the United States having a peaceful protestor locked up at his direction, going in to the jail with a bat and beating them bloody? This is something we cannot just ignore because they decided to give half a million dollars to some pro triathletes and they seem to really really like racing triathlons themselves. If we cannot take a stand against this behavior, even if it is to merely ask one single question about it when we have the guy's attention, what is it that we can stand up for, other than prize money?

In America, money talks. All that other stuff is irrelevant.

I'm not sure if Dan went to college. But if he did, I'm sure he failed Business Ethics 101. Money should not trump all, but in triathlon, unfortunately, it does. The mainstream media, like Dan and ST, are proving this.

Re: Bahrain politics [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]

Aug 31, 14 10:55

Post #39 of 74 (4422 views)

so if we go by that logic, then no one can criticize abuses by anyone else//

I don't think anyone here is saying don't criticize. In fact dan has written articles voicing that criticism. What i'm saying is do not use these incidents to squash sport in different countries. It is going to be immensely easier for countries like Bahrain to start to be more female inclusive if they have some small start or foothold, and sport is usually where that begins. You do not have to go that far back(in my lifetime) and women were not allowed in many sports, running the boston marathon for example. It was deemed to hard and difficult for the female constitution. Mind you, this was my generation saying that, and i'm not that old yet. Go back just a few more decades and women were 2nd class citizens here, not able to vote or have much of a say in anything. Go back just a bit further and they could not own land and in many cases were slaves to their husbands.

So is this just human nature and eventually all cultures will evolve from this type of thinking? It appears to me to be that way, and we just got out in front of it sooner(and later in some cases) that the middle eastern countries. It is easy for some to just say change it now, it would be the right thing to do. But i don't see it that way. The opposing majority in these countries want to go backwards on womens rights, so this democracy experiment we have instituted there is failing miserably. I say lets help them see how it should be by example, and let them take the baby steps they need to in order to keep the arrow pointed in the right direction. We had that in many of the other Arab spring nations, then all of a sudden our forced democracy voted in factions that did the exact opposite of what we would have liked to have achieved there. Basically set thing back several decades, and only time will tell now if and when it gets back on track where it was.

Re: Bahrain politics [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Aug 31, 14 10:56

Post #40 of 74 (4420 views)

I agree with Paul.

We can't tie all of those living inside a certain country (or kingdom) to everything that goes on inside its borders.

I was in Bahrain for 10 days recently and it was not what I expected. Yes they have different rights and a culture very different from our own but that culture has been cultivated for years and years. The overall feeling I took away was a large acceptance of a wide variety of cultures. While some of the people there are strictly living by traditional beliefs, there are plenty of progressive people as well and there was no anamosity present between the different cultures.

I think it's definitely important to know and understand the basic politics/culture of a country before visiting but as others have said, if we refused to support or provide coverage of sporting events that take place in, or have athletes from, countries that have beliefs or practices we consider wrong or unjust based on our own beliefs.... there would be very little sport at all. Including here in the US of course. We can't say we won't support or cover a race in a place like Bahrain while at the same time holding the Hawaii Ironman in highest regard.

Re: Bahrain politics [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]

Aug 31, 14 11:00

Post #41 of 74 (4412 views)

"let's also ask the hard questions - even though it makes them and us uncomfortable. Otherwise all we are doing is giving them our stamp of approval and promoting the status quo."

you are absolutely right. i think a lot of people who were convinced that bahrain "is as bad as it gets", as one person wrote earlier in this thread might now understand that, no, it is not as bad as it gets, not by any measure, not by any organization that dispassionately looks at human rights in the region.

at the same time, a lot of people who might not have ever known that there is a dark side to bahrain's treatment of a class or classes of protestors during its arab spring uprising 2 years ago now know, and they know enough to investigate further if they so choose.

when i began this thread i reminded people that this is a triathlon site. so, what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. if i'm going to accompany coverage of bahrain's triathlon with bahrain's civil rights, fine. but do i do that only for bahrain? can i only report on ironman cairns if i also report on the fate of aborigines and torres straight islanders? and in the U.S.? do we only cover the halfmax championship in missouri if we also cover ferguson?

hence the slowtwitch doctrine... which does not mean we do not mention the political or human rights issues, rather that it's easy to become the ugly american in our selective coverage of civil rights.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Last edited by: Slowman: Aug 31, 14 11:03

Re: Bahrain politics [Toby] [ In reply to ]

Aug 31, 14 11:03

Post #42 of 74 (4405 views)

Toby wrote:

devashish_paul wrote:

Where do you cut the line?

I don't think it's too hard, or unreasonable, to draw a line that exists somewhere between "a couple of hundred years ago" and "now". Claiming that we, as a country, are no better than another on human rights is absurd. That would be like saying England is our enemy now because we fought them in the the War of 1812.

+1. I think present time is a pretty easy place to draw the line.I think Dan and Dev and everyone else in support of Bahrain fail to realize that human rights violations are still happening in Bahrain RIGHT NOW. It's almost like they're delusional...

Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Aug 31, 14 11:11

Post #43 of 74 (4385 views)

Slowman wrote:

did you know that 400 people showed up for the national triathlon championships this year? in iran? for just over $200 you can fly round trip between the countries. i wonder what would happen a bunch of triathletes from both iran and israel happened to show up at challenge bahrain. you might think this a naive dream, but do you know that for the past 5 years, until last year, bahrain's ambassador to the united states was a jewish woman?

if we can have been diplomacy i don't know why we can have triathlon diplomacy.

See the first example I posted in this thread about triathlon diplomacy, or sport diplomacy...taking off our Armed Forces uniforms, be the countries foes or friends and then putting on our triathlon lycra and realizing that we're all actually quite the same. What is interesting is that "triathlon culture, basically can span all ideologies across nations" (I use triathlon, but it can be sport. A 100m sprinter from Jamaica, Iran, China Russia and Ukraine are more than likely in their minds first a 100m sprinter, then a national of their country. As an athlete, you develop the DNA for your sport, and the guys in the other country have the exact same sport DNA.....this bridge then allows us to more readily understand our differences. I remember talking to a Khazak military athlete who before joining the Army was a bricklayer. His entire family for several generations were from Russia and then transplanted to Khazakstan. Triathlon was his ticket to a better life in the Army and a better life outside of the Army. When he later had a doping positive late in his career after becoming an ITU world champion, I was not entirely surprised by the path he took. Sport had given him a better life, and he took the path to economic success. On my side, I was not a bricklayer, had a good life in the Canadian forces and had a few engineering degrees and did not have a big enough engine to even think about going the path that my Khazak competition did. It gave me exposure to another socio-economic perspective, that from my fairly affluent North American view I may have not otherwise understood. Still does not change him stealing a world championship from Simon Lessing, but at least I understood what drove this man.

Expose through sport, to different backgrounds and cultures is a good thing. Our common "sport DNA" allows us to connect. Then we can use that bridge to understand and analyse differences. Perhaps explain our perspective, while hearing theirs, and learning from both sides.

Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Aug 31, 14 11:12

Post #44 of 74 (4380 views)

Slowman wrote:

" can i only report on ironman cairns if i also report on the fate of aborigines and torres straight islanders? and in the U.S.? do we only cover the halfmax championship in missouri if we also cover ferguson?

I understand where you're coming from, but what makes human rights abuses particularly relevant to triathlon in Bahrain is that one of the primary triathlon officials in Bahrain is accused of beating athletes. I'm not aware of such a situation in Australia or the US.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Re: Bahrain politics [jkp07] [ In reply to ]

Aug 31, 14 11:19

Post #45 of 74 (4373 views)

jkp07 wrote:

Toby wrote:

devashish_paul wrote:

Where do you cut the line?

I don't think it's too hard, or unreasonable, to draw a line that exists somewhere between "a couple of hundred years ago" and "now". Claiming that we, as a country, are no better than another on human rights is absurd. That would be like saying England is our enemy now because we fought them in the the War of 1812.

+1. I think present time is a pretty easy place to draw the line.I think Dan and Dev and everyone else in support of Bahrain fail to realize that human rights violations are still happening in Bahrain RIGHT NOW. It's almost like they're delusional...

Fair, I am not saying they are not going on in Bahrain. But do you think there are zero human rights violations going on in the US, or Canada, or China, or Russia RIGHT NOW? ZERO? That's mainly my point about drawing the line. Let's play on with sport, and use it to influence and build bridges. There are bad guys everywhere, and we can't change them by hating them, but can by going in, understanding perspectives, influencing and building bridges. We should have kicked out all Russian athletes this weekend at Edmonton ITU or the US Open at Flushing Meadows using the same logic but we did not.

By the way, there is a big difference between supporting sport in Bahrain from the regime's actions in Bahrain. I don't necessarily like all this or the past regime's actions in Washington, but I support the sport in Kona.

Re: Bahrain politics [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]

Aug 31, 14 11:44

Post #46 of 74 (4344 views)

"I understand where you're coming from, but what makes human rights abuses particularly relevant to triathlon in Bahrain is that one of the primary triathlon officials in Bahrain is accused of beating athletes. I'm not aware of such a situation in Australia or the US."

yes, i understand this. and that's why i started this thread. just appending the interview i linked to our first story on this as further reading. in that story i reference this.

now, then, let's move forward to the interview. i story-boarded this interview, before the interview. let's say i ask this question. then i get the reply. and the reply is the other side of the story. and then i ... what? ask what? what would you have me ask? because i'm going to get the truth, or the spin, or whatever i'm going to get, from the bahraini side. and unless what i get is, "hey, we fucked up," (which would have been a great get, but i don't think that's what i would have gotten) if i just let the reply stand unchallenged then i'm going to get accused of lobbing softballs to the bahrainis. so i thought it best not to give the opportunity in the interview for just one side to be given.

now, you might then say, "well, why not give the other side?" which i could. when i wrote the article on starkowicz in abu dhabi i was contacted by the bahraini opposition. so i have that contact. but i don't know how to parse between what's true and what's not. it would require a much deeper dive into what's really going on in bahrain.

so, let's say i do that deep dive. do slowtwitchers want to read it? maybe. maybe so. and, to your point, a u.s. state dept official was expelled recently from bahrain for meeting with al wefaq. now, there's another side to this story too. but you only get one chance to make a first impression, and i thought that, while not hiding the allegation against HH Shaikh Nasser bin Hamad Al Khalifa, it would not be productive to make certain i'll never be able to write, investigate, understand, get to know, the bahrainis at all right in the beginning through insulting them. especially bearing in mind that i, and my entire country, and it's entire leadership, grossly misunderstood and miscalculate the arab spring revolt. i thought it best to maybe walk a bit more softly, at least early on.

i do not fault anyone who thinks my approach naive or wrongheaded. but i did think it appropriate to explain my thinking to our readers, as we have an intelligent and knowledgeable set of readers and i also did not want to insult them (you).

when i made my hit-and-run and drive-by comments i didn't know that you (on facebook) were you (on the forum). what i fully expected was a number of bahrain human rights folks trolling the internet looking for opportunities. "janet" being a case in point. my intent, nevertheless, was to engage them in a discussion on the forum should they so choose. janet obviously chose otherwise.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Aug 31, 14 11:46

Post #47 of 74 (4342 views)

Slowman wrote:

from what i understand, oil pumped out of the ground represents maybe a tenth of bahrain's GDP and that is expected to run out in about a decade. yes, they do produce natural gas.

they do make a significant amount of money off petroleum, but much of that is in refining. you can produce no oil at all and still be a significant refiner. natural gas, refining, aluminum production, banking and finance are the basis of its economy.

so, does bahrain pump oil? yes. about the same amount as south korea and cuba. a little more than poland. a little less than the netherlands and new zealand. it would take 70 bahrains to pump as much oil as it's neighbor the UAE.

The key point with respect to oil is is that oil generates more than 50% of government revenue. When the oil is gone where does the government gets its money to support its social programs and infrastructure projects? Dubai faced that problem and needed bailouts from its fellow Emirates. As to refining - nobody makes much money from refining and certainly not in Bahrain.

Re: Bahrain politics [AndrewPhx] [ In reply to ]

Aug 31, 14 11:49

Post #48 of 74 (4340 views)

"The key point with respect to oil is is that oil generates more than 50% of government revenue."

i will defer to you because you have first hand knowledge. i am relying on only what i've read, that oil production is 11 percent of GDP. however, you're right, it's a ton of government revenue because oil, gas, etc., are taxed at 46 percent while there is no income tax at all.

"When the oil is gone where does the government gets its money to support its social programs and infrastructure projects?"

triathlon, obviously.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: Bahrain politics [AndrewPhx] [ In reply to ]

Aug 31, 14 11:54

Post #49 of 74 (4340 views)

Just imagine how peaceful earth would be if there were no religion. No unsupported comic book dictating how people should act based upon the wishes of some character that may or may not exist. If we just treated others how we'd like to be treated, without the intervention of some fictional character, this world would be an amazing place.

_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.

Re: Bahrain politics [TheGupster] [ In reply to ]

Aug 31, 14 13:00

Post #50 of 74 (4296 views)

TheGupster wrote:

Just imagine how peaceful earth would be if there were no religion. No unsupported comic book dictating how people should act based upon the wishes of some character that may or may not exist. If we just treated others how we'd like to be treated, without the intervention of some fictional character, this world would be an amazing place.

Ummmm.... no.... I think social democrats (aka Nazis) tried that in Germany as well as Bolsheviks (aka commies) in the former USSR. turned out great!!!! no religion!

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