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Re: *Wetsuit cheaters Kona Ironman* [Sanrafaeltri] [ In reply to ]
 
DavidUK
Oct 18, 17 10:50
Post #51 of 79 (8635 views)
Its already been alluded to but I'm suggesting the culprits are more likely to be a poor swimmers who qualified due to a significant rolldown at a wetsuit legal swim IM and basically just wanted to survive the swim.
Sometimes poor judgement leads to quite savage consequences.

(sorry if you've revisited this post expecting pics of offenders ;) )
Dont complain about the results you did n't get from the training you did n't do.
 
Re: *Wetsuit cheaters Kona Ironman* [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
 
HuffNPuff
Oct 18, 17 10:55
Post #52 of 79 (8622 views)
synthetic wrote:
Any show this to marathon investigation? More profit for him chasing ironman athletes. I made a tag in Facebook, not sure if enough

His methodology is to look for missed times, improbable splits, and photo/video evidence that corroborates same. That methodology isn't going to work here because a couple of minutes saved on a swim isn't going to be flagged as improbable based on any history, and there won't be any missed timing mats from this. The only way to catch this kind of cheating is to have spotters watching people enter the water and look for the outline of core shorts under a skin suit ... then ask that person to turn up the leg to verify. That will only work if you have a strong control point for entry to the water.
 
Re: *Wetsuit cheaters Kona Ironman* [DavidUK] [ In reply to ]
 
Sanrafaeltri
Oct 18, 17 11:11
Post #53 of 79 (8572 views)
I am a poor swimmer. I think I was 1800th out of 2000 at the IM 70.3 WC even with a wetsuit!

But if it weren't wetsuit legal or in any race that is not wetsuit legal, that in no way even raises the thought of wearing part of a wetsuit I can hide. It isn't just someone who is a poor swimmer. It is a poor swimmer who can justify cheating in their mind. For me, I would look back on it for decades and whatever I did would always be linked to my knowledge that I did it by cheating and I don't want that. Others, sadly, just don't care.
2018 Races: IM Santa Rosa, Vineman Monte Rio, Lake Tahoe 70.3
 
Re: *Wetsuit cheaters Kona Ironman* [Sanrafaeltri] [ In reply to ]
 
mdgreene
Oct 18, 17 11:22
Post #54 of 79 (8538 views)
Who's volunteering to go through the swim exit pics? Those shorts are thick enough that you should be able to tell if you are looking for it.
 
Re: *Wetsuit cheaters Kona Ironman* [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
 
CP78
Oct 18, 17 11:23
Post #55 of 79 (8533 views)
zedzded wrote:
BIGringbrah wrote:
It is with a sad, mostly mad heart I post this. Quick backstory, I volunteer at swim exit-bag grab when not competing. Needed to take a wee during duties went to mens change tent still full of athletes. What do we find in the loo?? not 1, not 2 but THREE wetsuits in form of floatie pants. Was blown away. Both in the same loo. How many more did we not see? This is such BS and shameful cheating triathletes. Anyone see more?, women's tents??
They were size small and XS no distinguishing marks other than shit and piss. Pictures to post as well. They were fished out by a gloved hand and apparently more found. I know there is no way of outing these bozos but if they can know their actions are as disgusting as the final repose of their cheating. SHAME ON you..whomever you are..
Anyone have a connect with WTC course referees ?? Riccitelo??

I'm sure that bloke over at marathoninvesitgations could figure it out!

Serial number on the tag of the shorts, email the manufacturer!

This ^^^ or someone here who work at Roka or Tyr. Whoever found the shorts post the serials.
 
Re: *Wetsuit cheaters Kona Ironman* [kiwi.] [ In reply to ]
 
lschaan
Oct 18, 17 11:28
Post #56 of 79 (8505 views)
kiwi. wrote:
Do the time savings really outweigh the time to go into the porta-loos and strip them off? Still cheating, but seems like its not worth the effort.


Who knows, but I suspect the culprits were more going after "surviving" rather than any specific time savings. Suspect there were a few competitors who qualified in less competitive age groups at wetsuit legal races who were frightened about doing an unaided swim. Doesn't make it right though!
Last edited by: lschaan: Oct 18, 17 11:31
 
Re: *Wetsuit cheaters Kona Ironman* [mdgreene] [ In reply to ]
 
Sean H
Oct 18, 17 11:31
Post #57 of 79 (8487 views)
mdgreene wrote:
Who's volunteering to go through the swim exit pics? Those shorts are thick enough that you should be able to tell if you are looking for it.


i was going to look through a few to see if you could see that kind of detail on the "proofs" as I'd guess you wouldn't be able to tell without high res, but looks like the finisher pics aren't up yet.
 
Re: *Wetsuit cheaters Kona Ironman* [BIGringbrah] [ In reply to ]
 
imsparticus
Oct 18, 17 11:43
Post #58 of 79 (8456 views)
I am too cheap to throw out a perfectly good pair of wetsuit shorts. That's why I always stick a few balloons in my skinsuit before the start of the swim. I pop them 100 yards from shore with a safety pin I carry just for that purpose (right through my skinsuit). Pink font.
 
Re: *Wetsuit cheaters Kona Ironman* [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
 
DieselPete
Oct 18, 17 11:51
Post #59 of 79 (8427 views)
How thick are these suits? I mean, could you differentiate them from someone wearing jammers over a pair of tri shorts?
 
Re: *Wetsuit cheaters Kona Ironman* [imsparticus] [ In reply to ]
 
Fishbum
Oct 18, 17 11:53
Post #60 of 79 (8419 views)
I'm always so disappointed when someone comes up with a better way to cheat than I do..
 
Re: *Wetsuit cheaters Kona Ironman* [lschaan] [ In reply to ]
 
zoom
Oct 18, 17 11:55
Post #61 of 79 (8423 views)
Saying that only poor simmers would more likely resort to this to survive the swim is like saying only poor bikers would more likely resort to a bike motor to survive the bike or only poor runners would more likely to cut the run course to survive the run. One could make the counter argument that a 2 hour swimmer has less of a reason to cheat than a 1 hour swimmer. If I'm a 2 hour swimmer, being 10 minutes faster out of the water will won't mean all that much. If I'm a 1 hour swimmer and it saves me 5 minutes, that could put me up there in contention with the big boys. If I'am a 2 hour swimmer, I'm just surviving regardless of whether I finish in 2 hours or 1:50.


At the end of the day, everyone, regardless of speed, wants to be a little faster. Some do it by buying expensive equipment, some do it by hard training, some do it by cheating, and some by drugs. A cheater cannot be fitted into a particular speed stereotype. People are more likely to cheat for time than to survive .. my opinion :)





lschaan wrote:
kiwi. wrote:
Do the time savings really outweigh the time to go into the porta-loos and strip them off? Still cheating, but seems like its not worth the effort.

Who knows, but I suspect the culprits were more going after "surviving" rather than any specific time savings. Suspect there were a few competitors who qualified in less competitive age groups at wetsuit legal races who were frightened about doing an unaided swim. Doesn't make it right though!


__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."
 
Re: *Wetsuit cheaters Kona Ironman* [DieselPete] [ In reply to ]
 
Sean H
Oct 18, 17 11:56
Post #62 of 79 (8420 views)
DieselPete wrote:
How thick are these suits? I mean, could you differentiate them from someone wearing jammers over a pair of tri shorts?

I'm assuming these people wore sim shorts under a swim skin as mentioned above. Go into porta pot, take off swim skin and sim shorts. Ditch sim shorts in shitter and run out with swim skin in hand looking like you just used the bathroom and no point in putting swim skin back on.

In that case the swim skin would have a bump where it goes over the neoprene of the sim shorts. If you were standing next to someone you should be able to notice it. I'm not sure about in the photos though, as they're low res proofs.
 
Re: *Wetsuit cheaters Kona Ironman* [zoom] [ In reply to ]
 
lschaan
Oct 18, 17 12:20
Post #63 of 79 (8362 views)
Like I said, "who knows". I'll bet you bragging rights that if we do manage to out one of these cheaters they'll be a slow swimmer though.

zoom wrote:
Saying that only poor simmers would more likely resort to this to survive the swim is like saying only poor bikers would more likely resort to a bike motor to survive the bike or only poor runners would more likely to cut the run course to survive the run. One could make the counter argument that a 2 hour swimmer has less of a reason to cheat than a 1 hour swimmer. If I'm a 2 hour swimmer, being 10 minutes faster out of the water will won't mean all that much. If I'm a 1 hour swimmer and it saves me 5 minutes, that could put me up there in contention with the big boys. If I'am a 2 hour swimmer, I'm just surviving regardless of whether I finish in 2 hours or 1:50.


At the end of the day, everyone, regardless of speed, wants to be a little faster. Some do it by buying expensive equipment, some do it by hard training, some do it by cheating, and some by drugs. A cheater cannot be fitted into a particular speed stereotype. People are more likely to cheat for time than to survive .. my opinion :)





lschaan wrote:
kiwi. wrote:
Do the time savings really outweigh the time to go into the porta-loos and strip them off? Still cheating, but seems like its not worth the effort.

Who knows, but I suspect the culprits were more going after "surviving" rather than any specific time savings. Suspect there were a few competitors who qualified in less competitive age groups at wetsuit legal races who were frightened about doing an unaided swim. Doesn't make it right though!
 
Re: *Wetsuit cheaters Kona Ironman* [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
 
monty
Oct 18, 17 12:52
Post #64 of 79 (8303 views)
Keep in mind Sean that lots of people wear skins over other clothes, so there is going to be a lot of bumps under those things. If I were to race I would probably wear a skin over Tri shorts wit a top..
 
Re: *Wetsuit cheaters Kona Ironman* [lschaan] [ In reply to ]
 
zoom
Oct 18, 17 12:57
Post #65 of 79 (8291 views)
By Slowtwitch standard, slow could mean anyone over an hour in a non-wetsuit swim :)

__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."
 
Re: *Wetsuit cheaters Kona Ironman* [zoom] [ In reply to ]
 
eric.stuebner
Oct 18, 17 14:34
Post #66 of 79 (8172 views)
Would it be fast to wear them over your speed skin and then peel off in the final push of the swim? I'm guessing these people don't care about the environment any how...
 
Re: *Wetsuit cheaters Kona Ironman* [zoom] [ In reply to ]
 
rmt
Oct 18, 17 15:50
Post #67 of 79 (8063 views)
zoom wrote:
Saying that only poor simmers would more likely resort to this to survive the swim is like saying only poor bikers would more likely resort to a bike motor to survive the bike or only poor runners would more likely to cut the run course to survive the run. One could make the counter argument that a 2 hour swimmer has less of a reason to cheat than a 1 hour swimmer. If I'm a 2 hour swimmer, being 10 minutes faster out of the water will won't mean all that much. If I'm a 1 hour swimmer and it saves me 5 minutes, that could put me up there in contention with the big boys. If I'am a 2 hour swimmer, I'm just surviving regardless of whether I finish in 2 hours or 1:50.


At the end of the day, everyone, regardless of speed, wants to be a little faster. Some do it by buying expensive equipment, some do it by hard training, some do it by cheating, and some by drugs. A cheater cannot be fitted into a particular speed stereotype. People are more likely to cheat for time than to survive .. my opinion :)

The difference with this side aspect of cheating is that if you are a strong swimmer they won't make you any faster, so you'll actually lose time by having to change them. I'm pretty confident that the people using them are either weak swimmers who want to do better, or very weak swimmers who qualified at a wetsuit swim and are worried about drowning.
 
Re: *Wetsuit cheaters Kona Ironman* [DieselPete] [ In reply to ]
 
zedzded
Oct 18, 17 17:35
Post #68 of 79 (7929 views)
DieselPete wrote:
How thick are these suits? I mean, could you differentiate them from someone wearing jammers over a pair of tri shorts?

Mine are 5mm, they would stand out like tits on a bull under a swimskin.

I can imagine a lot of weaker swimmers who qualified in wetsuit legal races would have been crapping themselves. The swim standard in Australia is pretty good compared to other places e.g Europe, I did a sprint and it was deemed to be no wetsuits, but still half the people were shitting themselves, running around trying to find out if they could still use their wetsuits etc and conditions were perfect, flat and calm. The swim was 750m. It was quite comical.

I did an OWS last season (no wetsuits) in choppy/windy conditions, I reckon a good 30% of IM competitors wouldn't have made the cutoff. Swimming 3.8km in a nice flat lake with 5mm wetsuit is a very different story to swimming in the ocean sans wetsuit, especially when conditions aren't ideal.
 
Re: *Wetsuit cheaters Kona Ironman* [BIGringbrah] [ In reply to ]
 
Sweet T
Oct 18, 17 19:42
Post #69 of 79 (7741 views)
I SAW THE SAME THING!! These suits dumped in the port-o-potty inside T1. I didn't think much of it at the time, but it surely makes sense now bc I thought it to be very strange to see those in there.

Anyways, a sad thing to think people would do this.
 
Re: *Wetsuit cheaters Kona Ironman* [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
 
JackL
Oct 19, 17 2:21
Post #70 of 79 (7586 views)
zedzded wrote:
DieselPete wrote:
How thick are these suits? I mean, could you differentiate them from someone wearing jammers over a pair of tri shorts?

Mine are 5mm, they would stand out like tits on a bull under a swimskin.

I can imagine a lot of weaker swimmers who qualified in wetsuit legal races would have been crapping themselves. The swim standard in Australia is pretty good compared to other places e.g Europe, I did a sprint and it was deemed to be no wetsuits, but still half the people were shitting themselves, running around trying to find out if they could still use their wetsuits etc and conditions were perfect, flat and calm. The swim was 750m. It was quite comical.

I did an OWS last season (no wetsuits) in choppy/windy conditions, I reckon a good 30% of IM competitors wouldn't have made the cutoff. Swimming 3.8km in a nice flat lake with 5mm wetsuit is a very different story to swimming in the ocean sans wetsuit, especially when conditions aren't ideal.

This would definitely be accurate for me :-) I have never swam open water beyond 100-200m without a wetsuit. Learned to swim mid 30's, struggle somewhat to tread water, occasionally panic in open water.

Not that easy to get open water practice without wetsuit when the water is pretty cold (11-14) most of the year. Yeah I could HTFU :-)

Some qualifiers would never even have swam in the sea. I can understand where the temptation would come from (still not for me).
 
Re: *Wetsuit cheaters Kona Ironman* [KingMidas] [ In reply to ]
 
HVP
Oct 19, 17 8:18
Post #71 of 79 (7341 views)
KingMidas wrote:
I can’t imagine the time savings of wearing those jammers being more advantageous than time spent in a portapotty taking it off. Am I wrong?

Yes (you are wrong)! I don't know exact time savings, but I can basically sleep through a pool workout in these. They are magical. I can imagine arriving in T1 with very little fatigue from the swim.

Really sad. I mean WHO CARES what your time is at Kona? You got there. Similar to Boston - you run sub 3 hours to get there, then you run 3:30 on the day and enjoy the moment. Just pitiful.

Regarding another set of questions on here, how in the world did people nearby not notice? These things (I have the Roka version) are massive, like diapers.
 
Re: *Wetsuit cheaters Kona Ironman* [HVP] [ In reply to ]
 
synthetic
Oct 19, 17 9:16
Post #72 of 79 (7256 views)
Is there a link to pre race swim pictures, or swim exit?
 
Re: *Wetsuit cheaters Kona Ironman* [JASpencer] [ In reply to ]
 
BIGringbrah
Oct 19, 17 10:57
Post #73 of 79 (7161 views)
Spencer, Yes those are the two I have photos of.
 
Re: *Wetsuit cheaters Kona Ironman* [Sweet T] [ In reply to ]
 
Rocky M
Oct 19, 17 11:32
Post #74 of 79 (7063 views)
Next year in Kona, Ironman should have a camera pointed towards the porta-johns (on the outside) to see if they can add to their policing of this. It would seem obvious but at least it may deter someone. I like the serial number tracking idea. I supposed someone could always say they sold their pair to someone while they were in Kona & it wasn't them...but then they may be having to "out" their imaginary purchaser, which could then compound the problematic situation if approached. 4 year equipment doping ban when caught from all Ironman branded races.
 
Re: *Wetsuit cheaters Kona Ironman* [BIGringbrah] [ In reply to ]
 
pdxjohn
Oct 19, 17 20:15
Post #75 of 79 (7053 views)
What about helmet mirrors?

Just sayin'
 
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