Good luck! Sub 50 100 SCY at 40 is impressive.

Would sub 2:50 marathon and sub 50 second 100 scy be mutually exclusive energy systems. For the second you need to maximize your 20 second fast twitch access for the former, it is all aerobic.

I wonder if Jan Frodeno or Tim O'Donnell can do it. They are over 40 and for sure have the 2:50 marathon easily, but do they have the equivalent time in the pool. 50 scy is 55 scm which is 57 lcm.

My guess for you, is to go gain the time with explosive wall pushoffs and under water dolphin that are fast (and at least the muscle usage crossed over to marathon) versus pulling harder because pulling harders means more upper body mass that hurts your marathon.

Dev

Quite a goal! What were you doing at your swim peak? My son is a D3 swimmer and I think he’d be hard pressed to break 50 from a push generally.

I assume you are also training for tri? What distance? As a guy who will certainly never break 50 and probably never 2:50, my gut says you need big volume on the run and true sprint work in the pool, along with technique focus to really nail those 3 turns.

But I don’t actually know anything.

Excited to follow this! How close are you on the marathon - fastest recent half or full time?

I wonder if Monty could have done this in his prime.

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

I believe Monty's open marathon was low 2:30's. He would also lead, or be with the top swimmers in Kona every year. But that was under 40. Not sure Monty's 100 free all out.

I just looked at the 100 free world records and 57 second LCM gets one into the range of the world record in 55-59 and 60-64. 57 on LCM is roughly 50 seconds scy!!!

Precisely my point that they don't have to be mutually exclusive. But here is where the bike training has helped me over the years to improve my underwaters. If you see that first 100 recorded, the first 50 is not quite "explosive" since I almost even split it but I can't throw too much high end underwater quick because I will be averaging closer to 60+ run miles at my peak running and rather have fresher legs for the runs.

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Thank you!

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I believe Monty's open marathon was low 2:30's. He would also lead, or be with the top swimmers in Kona every year. But that was under 40. Not sure Monty's 100 free all out. //

Well the running part would have been really easy, as it would be for any pro that kept training until 40. I ran 2;36 at 39 with only a 6 week running focus, running around 40 miles a week. Certainly the top pros still racing at 40 would run just around sub 2;30/2;25, guys like Jan, Crowie, and Cameron Brown.


The hard thing here would be that sub 50 100 SCY. I would definitely not be able to do it, I barley did it in my youth. This really hinges on what speed were you in college or other competitive swimming days. At 40 you can get close to your old time while run training too, so if you were 47 or better, may have a chance. Not too many in that boat, most the triathletes were distance swimmers. Rick Wells could have done it for sure, he swam 51 for LCM in his day.


But that is the thing, you really have to fall back on old speed you already achieved, you cannot train it at 40 to just magically be there. So how fast was the OP in his day, that will tell you if he can possible do this or not. Sub 50 is miles away from a 52+, be like if he were trying to break 2;40 in the marathon.


Some elite pros could do it, running would have to be sub 2;30 to match that sub 50 though. Thinking back to others at 40, maybe Andy Potts?

Do you realize you are providing "swimming advice" to a former NCAA D1 swimmer? All due respect, but based on your swimming ability and knowledge, you are way out of your league giving him any advice. He knows exactly what needs to be done to get there.

 
I swam at Villanova (01-05) and was a 4:36/1:43 (500/200 free) at my "peak" and never really focused on the 100free. My fastest 100 on record was actually as a "master" in 2012 when I was 28 and went 47.98 from a dive.

I approach my training under a triathlon umbrella (~12hrs/week) and I am signed up for Ironman Lake Placid this summer. I definitely prioritize the easy run volume above all (you can follow my Strava here https://www.strava.com/athletes/42469911) but I actually don't do quite as much "true sprint" because I feel my "body type" gives me enough juice for the fast stuff. I've incorporated more anti-paddles and banded pull swims to improve my catch and body position. I definitely need to do more 50s around mid 24 to get that first 50 more explosive.

I went 2:53 at Boston (my first one!) last year and then 2:51 at Richmond marathon last November. Both races I negative split and feel like I get better at the distance every year. I did get hurt (hip) 2 weeks prior to Richmond and had to take a month or so off from running but I'm back to 40mpw.

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So basically a 48 flat from a dive 12 years ago, probably not much chance from a push. Why not do a dive by the way?

You were a good college swimmer, but seems you were more a distance guy. And I think 24.5 is not going to be enough going out either, you will need a sub 24 at the very least. But hey, good on you for setting a super hard goal, stretches out your abilities to the limit

My fastest 100 free (47.98) came 7 years after my last college meet. I never truly trained for the 100 as a youngster more of a 500yds (4:36 PR) guy. But I definitely feel that bike training over the years has helped my underwater kick and explosiveness.

It will be a fun journey to see how much speed in the water vs making sure I don't neglect the run volume and do the proper preparation still for Boston and nail on that day.

The sub :50 is definitely on purpose to make this a true challenge!

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love the ST heat! Sub :50 precisely because it HAS to be a challenge and yes I definitely need to be low 24 (which I know I can do). This 52+ was just to baseline it and "fun" all out at the end of practice.

From a dive a I think would be a bit easier. I do have a solid start ;) but again sub :50 from a push makes it more of a challenge.

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Wishing you lots of luck, keep us in the loop with any big workouts you do.

And I just recalled an age grouper that posts in our monthly fishes thread that could do this at 40. Optimal Adrain is his handle, pretty sure he has broken 50(did 5;01 for 500 at masters nats a couple years ago) and he is a swim/run specialist now. Perhaps he can chime in on what it takes as and AG'er at that age for workouts and bench marks.

I actually think I'm a better swimmer now than in college! My technique is way better, my overall health is better, balance and outlook in life a huge 180. So, not all PRs in college mean the same thing. Yes, you are young and strong but you never know what is going on behind the veil of "student-athlete"

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Why do you have to go out of your way to pick a fight with me constantly and end with a put down. I never spoke with you on this topic. Seems like the guy who started this thread roughly agrees with me on a potential strategy.

The reality is that upper body mass hurts the sub 2:50 marathon so was just pointing out the part of the 100 free where he needs zero upper body benefit. I was not giving advice on swimming as there are 1000 things to do to get faster in pool. Just pointing out the one place in the swim where if he can maximize that, it won't hurt the marathon either.

Dev

Thank you! and thanks for the input. You definitely have a better sense and understanding of the goal here. It is just a true FUN challenge. I've always been super private about my little projects (see another past project Skyline Double here https://www.strava.com/activities/3951957768) but more friends are encouraging me to share these adventures specially for 40+ folks.

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It's all good! I think we definitely speak the same swim language. Dev is making logical and sensical comments.

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2022 Masters Nats I went 48.42 from a dive: https://www.usms.org/...s/swim.php?s=4289281 . I don't think it would take much for me to improve on that a little bit and get under 50 from a push, but would definitely take a taper and shave.

In terms of what I do for max efforts in practice as a gauge for being able to hit that time:
100's all out (with lots of recovery) ~54
50's with lots of rest at 26 or faster.

To be able to swim a good 100, I think you focus on these things:

• 25's at max effort/turnover for speed.
• 100's all out, like 4-10 reps, with as much rest as you need
• 100 or 200 repeats above threshold effort at 10-30s rest per 100.

The 100 is a 'sprint' but it's really more like the 200 than the 50: going out as hard as you can without hitting 'the wall' and having that metaphorical piano drop on your back. For me that means I pace a 100 like 98% effort on the first 50 and 100% on the second.

I've never done a marathon, though. Last time I did a half marathon was like a decade ago; I was 1:24 on a hilly course around the Circuit of the Americas F1 track. I think i'm faster now. From some random internet calculator for running race equivalents, based on fast I know I can run a 10k I would be just under that 2:50 mark (but I probably don't do enough mileage to be prepared for a marathon).

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Agree with your training tips. You are an ideal candidate for this challenge. Join me!

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My college PRs are similar to yours- a bit faster at distance, apparently a lot slower at sprints.

Like you, I don't have an official 100 time.
(I was way way way to slow to ever be allowed to swim that in college).

I also tried to break 2:50 in the marathon a couple of times in my early 40s. That was a reasonable goal. But every time I tried, something came up.
(Usually, I decided mid race that I should shoot for 2:46, or something. And instead I wound up running 2:54).
Don't do that!!!

I think that sprint swimming and distance running should go great together.

I think sprint running and distance swimming might also go well together.

I don't think that fast distance running and fast distance swimming go together.
(This is a bit counter intuitive).

My focus has been primarily been on triathlon.

I haven't really put too much thought or effort into swimming. It's just not that important for tri.

Which relates to my own postes.

It might be cool to do some fast swimming!!

(For me that won't be sprints, at least relative to others).

Good luck.
Your efforts should be entertaining, inspirational and potentially educational.

What are your thoughts on the anti paddle compared to swimming with a closed fist? What do you like the anti paddle for?

Read the replies and wish you good luck with this.

Swim low hanging fruit - flip turn speed ? Regular jammer or a tech suit?

Firstly, I think what you are trying is super cool. It is literally at the opposite end of the spectrum, Maybe an equivalent challenge would be to maximize one's 400 running sprint and at the same time 10km swim time. Different horses for different courses. Having both ends of the muscle fiber blessing co existing in the same person tends to be rare!


I think inside running only Mo Farrah has a 48 second 400m and a 2:05 marathon....literally it is what made Mo devastating in the 500m and 10000m, because he could hold the steady pace and access things like a 52 second final lap in the 5000m).


Back to swimming, here is Rio 2016 4x100 underwaters:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOjloDn8spI


From what I see here, Phelps breaths 43 times in 47 seconds including his dive time in the air under water time (so always breathing every second hand entry). He had a massive wall and comes out in lead (you can see his run into the wall starting around 1:10 all the way into and out of the single wall.


scy means more gains from the walls, but way more time underwater. I would imagine with the wall push off, you are going to spend 40m out of 91.5m underwater not breathing. At the end of the day a 50 second event in any sport has a large aerobic component too so your marathon training also helps your oxygen carrying ability. I think Phelps was the master of maximizing air intake and at 40 you would need O2 more than at 20.


Maybe at 40, 57 LCM is easier than 50scy, because you may have more oxygen access in LCM format, but it's not a nice round number

Great questions! I was hoping someone would be more curious about all the things you ask.

1. I am a huge fan of the anti-paddle. I use Strokemax’s developed by former Hungarian Olympian Norbert Agh. The fist is definitely your easy go to but the anti- paddle truly forces you to find your optimal “catch” and in my case it forces me to also engage even more the lats and armpit area.
I remember seeing this SwimSwam video where Dressel, Liendo and the sprint group use them too.
I know from a former athlete that trained in this group that they actually 3D print them .

2. I think the kick and more aggressive walls are my lowest hanging fruit. If you see the 52+ video I really don’t “attack” the wall and feels more like a slow 200 free wall. I also failed bad to kick more (disclaimer: I cross-leg kick so it has always been a bit of a challenge to sustain a nicer sprinter kick). I think that this is just not really focusing on the swim since I swim mostly now for triathlons and don’t even do kick sets. I do have a pair of Arena powerfin pro that I plan to use more and push some fast 25s for underwater kick and 50s as well. Again, I was never a sprinter in my younger days but definitely think I got some decent fast twitch fibers in my favor.

3. The suit! I can’t believe no one asked before but yes definitely gunning for a shaved, taper, and fully tech suited! Need all the help I can get from a push.

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I think it can be very tempting to make comparisons and extrapolate. Mind you I am Lochte’s age and a year older than Phelps, so by the time I made it to my freshmen year of college, my generation was seeing in the making the next underwater evolution.

As you probably know, underwater are very individual (I just recorded an interview with Jesse Vassallo and we covered a lot about that and his involvement in pioneering). My underwaters are ok but I can definitely might be able to get back another half second.

Funny you mention the LCM comparison because the whole project idea originated from pushing a 1:00 when I was swimming with a master’s friend back in Puerto Rico when I visited last month. I had just finished a monster set (70x100s with the youngsters and was holding 1:10-1:12s leaving around 1:30). my friend thought I could def push closer to :58 with a tech suit. I don’t have a LCM right now to see if I could do that hence the sub :50 to make it more interesting.

I find it interesting that it feels here that the sub 2:50 is the “easy” one, but still need to put the run miles and stay healthy !

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