Pro racing AG

Mar 16, 14 4:05

Post #1 of 121 (9057 views)

Let me start by saying that rules are rules and if you follow them as they are laid out then I have no problem with you. That said, this doesn't mean some rules need to be looked at and potential changed. I was looking at the start list for my upcoming race and noticed that a former pro, one year removed, is racing AG. Again I don't have a problem with this seeing as his pro card expired and the current rules puts him back in the AG pool. However I am wondering if, IF he decides to take the championship slot, if that is really fair from a competitive sense and should be allowed.

We have a two year ban on competition for those caught doping (I am by no means comparing the two) which almost all professionals argue is not enough seeing as the "damage" so to speak has been done. The argument being that the athlete will have an unfair advantage going forward for many years due to the increased training load they were able to endure. This could also apply to a someone who raced professionally and no doubt has the times to easily top their AG, seeing as they have the training base that would be required to race at that level. So wouldn't it stand to reason that a former pro should have a "cooling off" period in regards to taking championship slots? I am not suggesting they not be allowed to compete but how about a couple year ban on taking championship slots.

Another example I have seen recently of this is a local pro whom had been racing pro for many years, lets his status run out, and the very next IM he races collects a slot to Kona which he never could possibly do under the new KPR system. He also went top 3 AGer at that very same IM and re-registered for his pro card after Kona and will be racing pro again this year.

In the name of a level playing field which many on this site, and rightfully so, fight for should their be a cooling off period in regards to former pros racing AG? Thoughts?

Re: Pro racing AG [Quincyceltic] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 14 4:16

Post #2 of 121 (9044 views)

If that same guy never went pro, he'd still be kicking everyone's ass.

Non-pros race AG. That's it, as far as I'm concerned.

The competition is just getting to the point that the race winners are at the bottom tier pro level. It's not their fault they don't choose to go pro.

Chris Harris

Re: Pro racing AG [Quincyceltic] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 14 4:25

Post #3 of 121 (9026 views)

I have zero issues with it.

Re: Pro racing AG [Quincyceltic] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 14 4:31

Post #4 of 121 (9013 views)

This topic comes up every once in awhile and it never ends well for the original poster. The original poster comes off looking like a whiney baby who's upset that they are no longer number one in their tiny world because there is now someone faster then them racing. Congratulations. You've met the stereotype.

Re: Pro racing AG [logella] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 14 4:51

Post #5 of 121 (8989 views)

Tri has always seemed weird to me that competitors are organized by age and not ability. AG racing seems like it would be the equiv of a Cat12345 bike race.

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Re: Pro racing AG [logella] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 14 5:02

Post #6 of 121 (8973 views)

Whiny baby, never got that before, thanks. Simple question, should pros not be eligible for championship slots a year removed from racing pro? I'm not taking about Dave Scott racing AG 20 years later.

Re: Pro racing AG [Quincyceltic] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 14 5:12

Post #7 of 121 (8953 views)

Simple question, should pros not be eligible for championship slots a year removed from racing pro?

No. Although you made the question less simple then it could have been by adding "not". Simple question for you: What advantage does this person have over you?

Re: Pro racing AG [Quincyceltic] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 14 5:12

Post #8 of 121 (8953 views)

Quincyceltic wrote:

Whiny baby, never got that before, thanks. Simple question, should pros not be eligible for championship slots a year removed from racing pro? I'm not taking about Dave Scott racing AG 20 years later.

Sure. Why not? The only thing your suggestion will do is delay the inevitable - getting beat by someone faster than you. You're just looking to extend your glory another year. Man up and accept that they are faster than you. They were faster than you 2 years ago, they are faster than you now, and they will be faster than you 2 years from now. Accept it and move on.

Btw, I speak from experience on this topic. I've gotten 2nd three years on a row (maybe 2, can't recall exactly) in my age group at a local sprint to a guy that used to "race" pro. I use quotes because he had his card in the pre-KPR days and used it to get into half a dozen or so IMs are year without having to worry about registering a year in advance. He was never in contention in the pro race though usually finishing in the 10-15 range (but still an hour plus ahead of me).

Re: Pro racing AG [Quincyceltic] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 14 5:12

Post #9 of 121 (8949 views)

The way I see it is that if a "pro" is not qualifying for Kona as a pro, then maybe they're not actually pro and should be racing AG. I don't have an issue with a former pro racing AG if they have let their pro card lapse. If they can't qualify for Kona as a pro then I don't see why they should cede a Kona spot to a slower age grouper if they no longer hold a pro licence. Good luck to 'em I say.

Re: Pro racing AG [logella] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 14 5:14

Post #10 of 121 (8946 views)

He got you with the "not".

Re: Pro racing AG [Quincyceltic] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 14 5:23

Post #11 of 121 (8923 views)

Quincyceltic wrote:

Whiny baby, never got that before, thanks. Simple question, should pros not be eligible for championship slots a year removed from racing pro? I'm not taking about Dave Scott racing AG 20 years later.

The other solution then is abandon all age groups under 45. Then the 40-44 guys are racing Cam Brown, Macca and Crowie, 35-39 are racing Andreas Ralaert, 30-34 are race Pete Jacobs. By the time they are 45-49 and 50-54 all these guys (like Tom Evans, Ken Glah and Scott Molina) are racing age group anyway, so probably 45-49 is the first age group when you have all the fastest humans who chose to race, racing in that group. 44 and under you have an artificial segregation.

Anyway, it is not there fault that they have better genetics than us in triathlon. I can train 20 hours per week on the same program as Tom Evans (former IMC and IMFlorida winner) and he will beat me by 2+ hours. On the other hand, I may have better genetics than Scott Molina for doing Laplace Transforms or triple integrals or quickly crunching the NPV on new product and I don't hear Scott asking me to hand him my salary because it is unfair that I was spending my time in grad school while he was building this sport racing pro every weekend. But if we keep whining about former pros racing age group, I just might ask Scott to show up at your work and ask you to hand him your salary because it is unfair!

Re: Pro racing AG [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 14 5:31

Post #12 of 121 (8903 views)

Quote:

But if we keep whining about former pros racing age group, I just might ask Scott to show up at your work and ask you to hand him your salary because it is unfair!

End thread.

Re: Pro racing AG [logella] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 14 5:37

Post #13 of 121 (8889 views)

So based on all of your rationales why not just create an entire open class and everybody races for the same rewards. Top 3 stand on the podium and top 50 get the slots regardless of age or gender.

Re: Pro racing AG [Quincyceltic] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 14 5:45

Post #14 of 121 (8878 views)

I'm not sure why or how you could ever compare this to doping. Having a pro card doesn't change anything except which wave you start in, which set of position rules on the bike you follow, and sometimes whether you pay to register. There's no asterisk of the "pros who work full time," "pros who live with their parents," "pros who are in grad school," and "pros who just do triathlon" categories. They're all the same. A lot of lower-tier pros still work and don't train a whole lot more than top-end AGers, and on the flip side, I also know of top-end AGers who don't really work or only work part time.

Re: Pro racing AG [Quincyceltic] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 14 5:45

Post #15 of 121 (8874 views)

No problems with this.

Re: Pro racing AG [Quincyceltic] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 14 5:57

Post #16 of 121 (8856 views)

Quincyceltic wrote:

So based on all of your rationales why not just create an entire open class and everybody races for the same rewards. Top 3 stand on the podium and top 50 get the slots regardless of age or gender.

I agree with your philosophy. I know someone who competed in Kona in the 90's and finshed 10th overall in the women, but because she qualified as an age grouper was ineligible for prize money (keep in mind the qualifying process was different back then).

I think what complicates matters is where you have wave starts. This happened back in the 90's in my local state series (western australia). We had a situation where guys starting in 3 different waves were placing in the top 10 prize money, although they hadn't raced head to head. Our association's solution was that you had to nominate in the "open" category at registration and go in the first wave, and could only qualify for open prizes if you started in that wave.

So I can see it being an issue at a large IM or 70.3 where there are wave starts, and conditions change during the day that favour or penalise people starting in different waves.

So getting back to your original post, you were questioning whether a pro should be able to move between pro and AG from season to season, and I think that's fine. As for your follow up, simply giving qualification or prizes to the top place getters works in mass- start races, but may not work in wave starts.

Last edited by: nickag: Mar 16, 14 5:59

Re: Pro racing AG [sentania] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 14 6:00

Post #17 of 121 (8841 views)

On a brief side not I would also like to announce I will be racing as a 60yr old woman this upcoming season.

Because as a poster pointed out, "Sure. Why not? The only thing me racing against 60yr old women will do is delay the inevitable - getting beat by someone faster than you. They are probably just looking to extend their glory another year. WoMan up and accept that I am faster than you. I was faster than them 2 years ago, I am faster than them now, and I will be faster than them 2 years from now. Accept it and move on."

Re: Pro racing AG [Quincyceltic] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 14 6:14

Post #18 of 121 (8800 views)

Another example I have seen recently of this is a local pro whom had been racing pro for many years, lets his status run out, and the very next IM he races collects a slot to Kona which he never could possibly do under the new KPR system. He also went top 3 AGer at that very same IM and re-registered for his pro card after Kona and will be racing pro again this year.

_______

That's a chicken shit move by the "pro", but it's allowed by the rules, so yeah whatever.

In regards to a cooling off period, how long of a period would be acceptable? Would the standard 2 year period seem sufficient? It's interesting because more times than not, it's the "fringe" pro that will drop down immediately into AG ranks and likely pull a move like your describing. You likely wont see a top named pro immediately go from PRO to AG and take away spots.

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Re: Pro racing AG [Quincyceltic] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 14 6:21

Post #19 of 121 (8784 views)

One thing I learned a long time ago is no matter how good you think you are, you are nothing in the big picture!! There are always SO many others that are so much better that it is not worth even thinking about!! Whether it is gentics like Dev states, or a person who can train more from things like retirement, unemployed, won the lottery, etc like Dan states, is another. Or the many I have met that are so much better but have no desire to ever race since they have nothing to prove. If you are doing sport other than for the fun and exercise, you will spend you entire life comparing youself to others which is a total waste of time. Be the best you can be against yourself by your focus to training, etc.

As an example of how things are a joke, USAT now changed the rankings so you can be an All American at 10%, rather than the 5%. So, IMO, being an AA is even more of a joke than it was before.

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Re: Pro racing AG [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 14 6:23

Post #20 of 121 (8780 views)

I think one year would be more than acceptable. We all say on here all the time how many people are racing as age groupers and should be pros and vice a versa. So a one year cooling off period would just ensure that someone wasn't flip flopping. Just leveling the playing field a little better than I feel it currently is. Does that mean they aren't going to kick my ass in year two as well, no. But in year two it can be rationalized they are more on a even playing field with other amateurs.

Re: Pro racing AG [Quincyceltic] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 14 6:25

Post #21 of 121 (8771 views)

The question I have is why is a "cooling off period" necessary? There's nothing about racing in the professional category that gives an another athlete an unfair advantage. It's not much of a stretch to say "oh, you just turned 55 this year. You have to wait until you're 56 to earn slots in the 55-59 category because you just came off of racing in the more competitive 50-54 category."

Re: Pro racing AG [Quincyceltic] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 14 6:29

Post #22 of 121 (8758 views)

"On a brief side not I would also like to announce I will be racing as a 60yr old woman this upcoming season."

Whatever you need to do to feel good about yourself, go for it.

Re: Pro racing AG [Quincyceltic] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 14 6:32

Post #23 of 121 (8751 views)

I'd rather leave it as is, and snicker at the people that pull the moves you are upset over. Like I said, that pro who went pro-AG-pro, is the reason why we say "there is a difference between an elite and a pro". That dude's just a 1 off pro that will never do much of anything, other than be "that guy" with moves like that. And as I said, it's those type of athletes that you have to worry more about than some big name pro dropping down to AG ranks and suddenly taking your prizes. Some athletes get it, and some don't.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Re: Pro racing AG [Quincyceltic] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 14 6:48

Post #24 of 121 (8711 views)

Quincyceltic wrote:

I think one year would be more than acceptable. We all say on here all the time how many people are racing as age groupers and should be pros and vice a versa. So a one year cooling off period would just ensure that someone wasn't flip flopping. Just leveling the playing field a little better than I feel it currently is. Does that mean they aren't going to kick my ass in year two as well, no. But in year two it can be rationalized they are more on a even playing field with other amateurs.

What the "F" is a cooling off period. Is this ex-pro supposed the lay around the pool and just wait to enter a race some day in the future. You sir, are taking this age group thing too seriously. There is only one real group out there. It's the one's fighting to cross the line first. Everything else is created to make the rest of us feel better.

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Re: Pro racing AG [Printer86] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 14 6:57

Post #25 of 121 (8683 views)

An ex-pro could race any race he would want to in that cooling off period. All that would happen is that he would be ineligible for AG awards/spots during that 1 year "cooling off" period.

It really isn't all that bad of an idea, but like I said, it's the fringe PRO that more than likely takes advantage of these rules than the well known pro's. After being at that top level, they likely respect the AG athletes enough not to take their spots when they are at a "pro" level type of racing, IE immediately after retiring "pro".

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

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