Na, you are fine. I did my first marathon with a max run of 13 miles, averaged 10 miles per week of running. So, if your goal is to finish, have fun, stay healthly, my n-0 experience says you can do great and have a life. I average about 8 to 12 miles a week running. I have my second 1/2 mary within a month next week. Have my next marathon in 6 weeks.



Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

why does it have to be a half-marathon in 6 months? This is a sure recipe for injury and burnout. Set some decent goals. Shoot for a sub 45min 10k, do a 10 miler mid to late summer. half in '08 and look to a full marathon in '10, turn in good times and enjoy running & being fit.

I have no training answers for you, just a perspective...

Is a 10:30-12:30 pace really THAT slow?

I dunno, that seems like a pretty typical pace for friends I have observed who are starting out, or in their first few months of training. Their 10k's do take longer than an hour.

Remember that WALKING is a TWENTY MINUTE PER MILE pace. FAST walking (4 mph) is a fifteen minute mile. So you're still killin' the walkers with your pace ;)

People starting up on my track, without a running background, seem to be doing their 400's in about 4:20. Sometimes they can do the first two in around 4:05-4:10 but then they slow way down.

1) stop listening to either (edit: meaning the guy's on your shoulders not Paulo and Barry!!)
2) google "HADD" and locate HADD's approach to distance running
3) read and follow

My 2 cents

A sub 45min 10k is IMO much harder than finishing a half marathon.

"A sub 45min 10k is IMO much harder than finishing a half marathon."


Also it is just as easy to injure yourself while pushing to go that fast, from where the OP is at right now, as it is when you add more milage

Umm... just to clarify...

I'm more interested in how to get fast for the long run (i.e. years to come) than for this particular upcoming race. I planned the 1/2 Mary on the assumption that the way to get fast was to go long first, then gradually get faster. So the 1/2 gives me a reason to add mileage over the winter.

A new wrinkle is, I just found out I'm going to have some minor surgery that's going to knock me out of running for a few weeks... (2-6 depending on how I heal). So it might be an opportunity to start all over again...

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Yes, I too now have a Blog. Don't laugh.

Running is not about starting over its about consistency.

There are three primary factors you need to consider frequency, duration and intensity.

Someone in your position needs to increase the first 2.

You need to run more frequently and eventually build up your mileage. Speed comes with overall fitness.

Speed work is practically useless to someone at your level of running. It is a recipe for injury.

Just get out and run. Go buy Daniel's Running Formula. You will find different programs for different levels as well as training theory, physiology, etc. Additionally, it will tell you what pace you should do your runs.

Bottom line is you need to set realistic goals; however, unless you have some great genetics you aren't going to be running a 45 minute 10k or a sub 2 hour half marathon on the training you are doing. There is nothing wrong with that, but just be realistic in what you want to accomplish.

yes, you are correct about too much speed work too soon, but I'm advocating better training in the short amount of training time. you can put in good 10k times with say, 25 to 30 miles a week. No way you're going to do well in a half with that little amount of training. Jim Fixx claimed you should start your speedwork as soon as you can run for a complete hour - sounds like the OP has reached it. I'm afraid that with the high-milage training and bop racing he'll just get frustrated and give up.

oooh, I'll get hell for that last statement.

Sounds like your problem is consistency. When you are running 4-5 times per week consistently for at least a few months, you will be faster. Build frequency first, then distance and finally speed. You may not get to the speed building part this year but that does not mean that you will not run faster. You can get plenty fast by focusing on frequency and then time/distance. Start by working up to 5 runs per week (very short if you have to) and add mileage very slowly. You should be working on form and flexibility at the same time. When you get to 40-50 minutes, 5 times per week with no injuries, I'd bet that you will be breaking your 5K PR every time you lace up your shoes for a training run. Simply do the runs at a pace that allows you to run 5 times per week and recover adequately. That pace will improve quite a bit once you are consistent over time. I think you are just not running enough to get much faster. If you always do what you've always done........you know the rest.

Mike

1st off, don't be too alarmed about your low mileage. You are running 2 1/2 hours a week, no? Even though that is "12 miles" for you, you are doing just as much running as a faster person who runs 20.

Both Devils are right. You should do primarily easy running and build up your mileage. However, you should also teach your body to run faster.

After you've done 4 weeks of easy running, add in two workouts a week.

#1) a 20 minute run at about 10K race pace.

#2) 8x200 meters fast with 200 meter jogs. You should never be sprinting and the workout shouldn't kill you, but you do want to run faster than you would in any distance race.

in addition, make sure that one run a week is significantly longer than the others....as long as you can tolerate.

Any additional running you do should incorporate 3-6 20 second pickups (striders) to work on form.



Although your main priority is to build mileage and stay consistent (90% of the game) you don't want to neglect these quicker workouts to help "teach" your body to run faster....especialy since it seems like you psychologicaly need it.



Let me know if you have any questions.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

What a minute, I just did a half mary, 1:34:52 at 49 years old on 13.55 miles per week average for the year. I know this isnt that good, but not bad for 13 miles a week.



Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

and great job, I say. I bet your 10k times are faster than 1:06 ;-)

Yea it is, but who cares. I have good parents. Times mean nothing to me. Lifestyle, health and friends is all that matters.

My only point is from all that I have read, and folks I talk with, the positive about Tris is the balance of activity. I never run back to back days! Never! I dont run tons of miles. I balance what I do. I do it 12 months a year. And I have been doing it now for 10 years.

I know enough folks who used to be runners. I say used to because now their hips are shot, or their knees are shot, and they will never run again.

I talk with folks who work in physical therapy and they say the number of people they since at 50 with hips that are shot is just amazing. This is the type of doctor one wants to become. Replacing hips and knees for folks at 50 who have worn them out.

Now, I know my knees could go at any time. I have been having issues for years. So, this is why I never open it up for a training run. I just do LSD like I did tonight. 5 miles at a 10 minute pace.

So, I just hate to see from what my experience is the pushing of miles and miles of running. This sport should be a life style. The goal should be for a long time. Why do you think there are so few racers over 50? Because they dont want to race? Because they didnt train enough? From what I see, is they wore their bodies out.

I also have seen doing sports my entire life that we all have a set of genetics for how "fast" we will be. I never hear folks talking about slow twitch and fast twitch muscles. Sorry, if you were born with fast twitch, do you really think this person is going to go fast in a marathon? Not from what I read.

So, I always tell folks their goal should be to make exercise a lifestyle. Screw the times. Most of this is driven from your parents. I dont care how much running I do, I will NEVER run a 3:15 marathon, and I could care less. I just smile when I am one of the few older that can even compete. And, my goal is to be doing this at 70. How many ex pros or top AGers do you know that either are still racing, or will be at 70. Some, but very very few.

So, if ones goal is to give it all now and take the risks.,great, go for it. But, if ones goal is to get in better shape, and enjoy this great sport for many years, then, balance is critical, IMO, and I just dont see enough of it. Too many inputs are given as if we are all the folks who got the top genes. Sorry, most of us did not.

I may be totally out to lunch for most, but again, how many folks do you see racing over 50, let alone over 50 and fast. The last race I did had 36 45-49. Only 11 50-55. And this percentage is high for most of the races I enter.

So, I am not saying I am an expert. But, I know enough to offer a different view, which some may want to think about.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Wow. Lots of good advice here. I think this is just what I needed to hear.

I am getting frustrated with my slow pace, but I need to step back and look at it. BarryP (and others) are telling me that with frequency, and later volume, things will get faster.

And h2ofun is reminding me that it is NOT, in fact, better to burn out than to fade away... My legs don't like to run right now. And if I don't nurse them along carefully, they're going to rebel on me. They aren't used to this. I didn't even start running till I was 30. They've only been doing this for 3 years, and that VERY sporadically.

I'm just too impatient for my own good. :)

So, my new goal... build up to 5 days, even if it's just a few minutes. Then, in another month or two, add in those x200 pickups. Just to keep it interesting. The half mary is still on, just because it's a "big goal". If it takes me 3 hours to finish because I walked it all, so what?

Thanks guys!

On another note, frankly one of the things that frustrates me is hearing about folks here doing LSD miles at 7-8 min/mile. Or even h2o with bad knees doing them at 10. That's just something I've got to get OVER. I've got to learn to enjoy running MY race. Not Y'alls.

Again, thanks!

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Yes, I too now have a Blog. Don't laugh.

TwinDad, exactly. Set goals that relate to you, you genes, you luck with injuries, etc.!!! My wife is going to do her third half Mary with me next week. She does them in 3 hours. She walks most of them. She has the time of her life!! She loves her medals and tee shirts! And she may walk the track 3 miles a week. In a lot of ways, she has a MUCH better balance on life and goals than I do.

The input about frequency is 100% correct. If one is just a weekend warrior, one can only expect certain results. When I started into this sport 10 years ago, in my first race, I swam with a snorkel, I just about passed out from the swim, I walked my bike up all the hills on the 5 mile course, and I walked most of the 4 mile run. Boy did that tell me how out of shape I was. When I was able to start running some 8 minute miles on the track, I cant tell you how happy I was. When I crashed two years ago on my bike at the vineman, I could have been killed, rather than a broken collar bone, ribs, and bad concussion. I was in the best shape of my life, and it was all gone in a flash. This really put things in perspective. Every race I complete I am thankful to be alive. So, it has taken me 10 years of 12 month trainings to build up to where I am at. I am still getting faster, but, with all the extra training, am really at risk of hurting myself now. I am now doing 2 to 3 hours a day, 2 to 3 times a day exercise. Trying to see how good I can be for next year has turned into a Type A activity. I get up at 4:20. Hit the pool at 5:30. Get to work at 7. Leave at 3 for my 2 hour bike. Eat at 5:30, and start into bed at 7. Now, if my kids were still at home, this would never work. This is why in a lot of ways I wish I was back to where I was 10 years ago. Just going out and having fun with no goals or pressure.

For what its worth again, assuming you are in this site to be a tri racer, balance exercising in all three sports. I never run back to back days since it beats you up too much. I never bike back to back days since again, I like to give the body at least 24 hours of rest. I am hoping swimming 5 days a week is not too much. We shall see.

So, anyone who gets to the starting line is a winner in my book. The finish line is icing on the cake. 99% of the folks sit on there butts and never do anything. So, no matter what your time is, you will be better than 99% of the folks on this planet. That seems to be a pretty good goal to have. And, if one gets hurt and joins the 99%, were "fast" times worth it if it meant injury, or family issues, or ...?

So, keep reading ST. Subscribe to all the running and tri magazines. I read them each night. What works for some, will not work for others. So, as dev would say, this is just my experience. Gather as many inputs as you can, and put together a plan that makes the most sense for you against your goals.

Brad Kerns has written a great book that starts out with a lot of stuff having one think about goals and why they are doing this sport. You may want to consider reading it as another source of input.

Best of luck. If my wife can finish in 3 hours a half Mary, and be super excited, anyone can!! (Now, I would love to break 1:30, but just dont see that in the cards. :o) )



One last thought. A lot of bikers are ex runners. Wonder why. If you legs are not ready to do running, get on the bike. Get in the pool. Get into speed walking. Just get into daily activity that keeps the heart rate up. And, if you keep at it, who knows where you will be in 10 years. Just do it slowly so it becomes like breathing.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Dave,

With all due respect, I think you use the claim that "If I train more, I would get injured" as a cop out for not wanting to find out what you are capable of. There are a lot of people over 50 who run a lot and don't have their hips replaced, and there are a lot of people over 50 who don't run at all and do.

You always say "I don't care about how fast I am, I am just in it to have a well rounded lifestyle. I don't have the genes to be fast." and then post your exact finishing time to the second with the qualifier of "I only trained 13.15 miles/week."

You obviously have natural talent to post the times you do on minimal training, but you will never know how much. Our "deepest fear" is not that we are inadequate.

So, something like 2 rest days, a 10K (not race) LSD run, a couple 3-4 mile midweek runs, maybe a short (2mi or 30min) run/walk and a "speed" (and I put that in quotes on purpose) session where I do the x200s?

Something like:

Su: rest
Mo: 3mi easy
Tu: 2mi easy run or walk
Wed: 3 or 4 mi easy
Thu: 8x200 fast with x200 jog/walk breaks
Fri: rest
Sat: 6+ mi long run

That'd be... umm... 16miles/week, or about 3.5 hours. I could probably build up to that. The Thursday session would only get added after a month or so of the other 4 days, no?

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Yes, I too now have a Blog. Don't laugh.

Yep, there are faster folks. There are folks who do more hours. But, I will put up against anyone what I get done in life per day. My first priority in life is my health. (Which means I sleep 8 to 9 hours a day.) Second is my family. Third is my job. And whats left over now if for tris. Do you think anyone will care at my funeral how "fast" I was, or could have been? Na. When I want folks to know me by is the balance that I had, and for the things I did do, I tried to do them well. Not perfect, but great.

Yep, I am proud of my times. Yep, I am proud that I can show one can do well with less. So, most like to brag how well they do on so many hours they train. I guess I like to offer to folks another side which is one can do okay, and still do everything else in life.

I always smile when I am reading my running or tri magazines and see a top racer talk about the injuries they have. I just say wait until they are my age and see what those injuries will do to them.

I am not trying to say my training process is for anyone other than me. But, I just think it is wrong that some always tells folks they can be better if they just train more. But they never ask about their goals, the risks, what they would give up. I am lucky I did not get into this sport until my kids were done with sports and out of high school. Never would racing take a higher priority that my family!! But, I am just different.

I have done enough sports that I got good enough that I just kept getting hurt. So, I know what it is like to give it all. I have no desire to get to that point, if I can help it, again. (Not sure I am not heading that way again as I do me 3 a day workouts. :o( )

The above probably does not make any sense to anyone but me. But what the heck, I do love this sport.



Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Looks good except I think the 20 minute tempo run is more important than the 200s. At the very least, altrenate every other week. One week is a 20 minute tempo run, the next is a set of 200s. Also, you may want to start with just 4x200....it will all depend on how you handle it. Don't want to get hurt.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

[reply]Looks good except I think the 20 minute tempo run is more important than the 200s. At the very least, altrenate every other week. One week is a 20 minute tempo run, the next is a set of 200s. Also, you may want to start with just 4x200....it will all depend on how you handle it. Don't want to get hurt.[/reply]

Roger, Wilco! I like the idea of alternating the tempo and Nx200's. It's sometimes tricky for me to get to a track, and the tempo run is easier to do on the road. A little variety will keep me jumping, I think.

I'll start with a test to see how many 200's I can do before I'm winded, then build from there. It's probably closer to 4.

Thanks for the advice!!

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Yes, I too now have a Blog. Don't laugh.

Oh, one more question...

My usual available run routes are not flat. they have rolling hills at low to moderate grades (some quite steep) that take anywhere from :30 to 2:00 to climb.

Aside from picking a pace where I can do these climbs steadily and still complete the distance at the intended pace (slow, tempo, etc.) .... any modifications to the plan needed for terrain? The hilly routes would be the defacto option for all but the x200 track workouts and maybe the tempo run (if I do it on the track).

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Yes, I too now have a Blog. Don't laugh.

Nope. Just expect to go slower on the hills (especialy your tempo run if done on hills).

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Okay, thanks! I'll try it.

NO, I'll DO it.

:)

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Yes, I too now have a Blog. Don't laugh.