I am one of the people that believe you should train/test in the same manner you will race. So FTP testing and hard intervals are always on the extensions. During easier efforts, I may sit up every 5 minutes or so, but the majority of time is still in the extensions.

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+1

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+2

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The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev

Last season I had an FTP test where I sat up for the second 10 minutes of the test interval b/c I just couldn't hang on in aero any longer at that power output. That was my highest 20 minute output the whole season but the calculated FTP from that interval was in no way realistic. Train like you intend to race. I find that my FTP tests where I test fully in aero result in realistic approximations of my FTP.

This exactly. +2

Your FTPs are different, with some people very different, for for trainer/in bars and on the road standing up and sitting up whenever you want. HOWEVER, you can read about many pros who ride 80-90% on a road bike. So like the others said, test how you are going to train so the #s are useful.

My practice so far has been to test sitting up, then do as much training as possible in the extensions, only sitting up when I have to. Not sure if it makes enough of a difference to think about changing.

Keep doing that.

I know I'm not a fitter or coach or anything similar, but surely the position that you would want on a tribike is one where you can be in the aero position for extended periods of time whilst working at a high level of output?
and off the back of that, should we have a different ftp value for different positions of bikes.
eg, I have a higher measurable 20 min ftp on the drops on my roadie than on the bars of my tri bike, but when using the tri bike, I use the tri bike ftp as my measure.... as the roadie one would not be relevant.
so back to your situation above, a FTP of say 270 watts sitting upright, but that may be 110% of your aero bar FTP... which do you select as the measure upon which to base your training?

A couple of points:
1. some might chose to adopt a position that makes slightly less power, because it is still faster

2. if your power is so different on your TT bike that you start worrying about having a different FTP settings, you probably went too far, and should correct the problem.

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Should you be concerned about your tri vs road fit during the out season?

Sit up. Numbers is what win the race, not RPE. Indoor training has a higher mental cost (thus RPE) than outdoor riding and the purpose is to train the body to metabolize energy as fast as possible, and that is done sitting up. Lying in aero you introduce a mechanical deficit, making your actual, physical, FTP lower than necessary.

For every hard effort you should be on an road bike or sit up. For every easy effort, go aero. You will get the best of both worlds: high outputs on the intervals and adjusting to aero position on the easy days.

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Endurance coach | Physiotherapist (primary care) | Bikefitter | Swede

Agreed. Use the position you produce the most power and get the most work done.


To a degree it's a moot point anyway. I appreciate there are always exceptions but given a decent amount of people seem to the able to produce slightly less power indoors than out anyway there's no guarantee that what you do indoors will apply outdoors as well whether that's power or position. Riding indoors and outdoors is just different and you can end up comparing apples and oranges.

As long as know you can stay aero for the duration of your chosen race distance outdoors I don't think it matters too much how you train on the trainer as they are different animals. Just keep improving and that will translate to your racing.

Don't agree. If you need to put the power out in the aero position in a race, then that is what you must train to do. How much you do it (c/w sat up) is up to you. I personally sit up sometimes (and have noticed a distinct drop in HR for the same power until it starts climbing again) if I feel I might not get the session done in it's entirety otherwise. Just write down what you did in your training log and only compare like with like.

Or you need more time to adapt to the position.

The reason behind doing interval sitting up is the same reason why you should not only practice race pace intervals throughout the year. Periodization. You build from general (ability to put out huge numbers) to specifitiy (best possible race performance, ie w/cda & pacing.). Dont do all at once. First, get the numbers high. Get very fit. Then adopt it to race specificity. Still using the aero bars for easy training during general prep makes the shift into specific easier and faster.

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Endurance coach | Physiotherapist (primary care) | Bikefitter | Swede

This. You want your FTP work to be balls out hard/ maximal effort pushing the highest numbers you can manage. For all other rides go aero

This makes no sense to me. I am still going as hard as I can when in aero and that is the position I race in. What is the benefit of gaining power in a position I do not race in, bearing in mind that I do also increase my power in aero. Are you saying you can increase power gains quicker sitting up? I also understand specificity in terms of efforts, but do fail to see why you should do heavy intervals sitting up when as soon as you go into aero the majority of people are unable to put out Max power.

I am genuinely curious if this is opinion or fact?

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On the internet, you can be anything you want. It is a pity so many people choose to be stupid.

Adding more anecdotes... Last year from October to February I did all of my hard intervals and testing in the upright position, indoors...following the logic that the more power the better. I did strive to do much of my easy rides down in the aero position. Mid February I went to Tucson for a 2.5 month training camp and at this time I made it a point to begin doing all of my hard efforts down in the TT position. I was taken a back by how much my power output had dropped...around 30 watts. In reality it was probably even more than this because as has been mentioned, it tends to be easier to push bigger numbers outside due to more external stimulation. It took me almost the entire training camp to get back to pushing numbers I had been pushing indoors, upright. This "offseason" I have made it a point to do all of my hard intervals in the position I will race in...and I do a lot more of my easy riding upright.

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I think you are missing the point of an FTP test. The #1 goal of the FTP is NOT to get the highest number. The goal is to get a theoretical number at which you could hold that power number for exactly 1 hr. Once you have this theoretical number (FTP), you develop training zones base off FTP, workouts with intervals based off FTP (2 x 20 min @ 90% FTP), and power goals/targets for races based off FTP and various workouts. My whole point is, the FTP test is used as a basis in training AND races when determining power goals. If you don't do the FTP test correctly and don't do your hard intervals correctly, you won't hit your power numbers in a race.

If you want to do your FTP tests and hard intervals upright in the base bars, go ahead. But good luck hitting your power numbers in race.

Edit: FTP is like benchpressing. Everyone wants the highest number. Some guys cheat to get a higher number so they can brag. Few actually know how to use it properly.

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I think the theory is that if you race long course, it doesn't matter because you'll never be pushing FTP like watts (or very rarely) so whether you test aero or on the base bar is up to you. For example, if you race Ironman and ride at 70% FTP it's a very comfortable effort level. That said, if you race short course and tend to ride at 100% FTP or higher its imperative that you test in the aero bars.

No. If you test on the base bars and then want to ride an IM at 70% FTP, you will actually be riding higher than 70% FTP because your FTP is higher on the base bars than it is in aero. So you will be riding your IM at say 75-80% of FTP where you think it's 70%. This is my whole point that testing and all hard intervals should be down in the aero bars to ensure all data gathering is on the same level.

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This is just opinion. During the out season, I'm more concerned with building general strength and fitness. As the season or my A race draws closer, I take that General fitness and starting gearing it to more race specific fitness. So at this point of the season, I'm mainly doing zone 2 work with some zone 3 and low cadence work. Zone 2 aero. Zone 3 is a mix and low cadence is on the bull horns. To me it keeps it interesting and works things just a bit differently

This would be true if the OP was talking about riding outdoors but be isn't. He's talking about riding on the trainer. I don't race on the turbo so regardless the data gathered isn't on the same level as data from outdoors.

This may not be the experience for you or the OP but I know that personally I can't manage the same power levels on the turbo than I can outdoors (even comparing the base bar indoors to aerobars outside) whether that's down to inertia, lack of cooling, motivation or whatever. Likewise I can't stay aero on the turbo for more that a few minutes at a time, yet I managed several 100 mile TT's and 2 IM bike legs this year staying aero without a problem.

As I say you and the OP might not have that variation but I think that comparing riding outdoors and indoor, whether on the aerobars or not for me is like comparing apples and oranges.

IMO ride in the position you can get the most power and work done indoors and base race power levels on what you can actually do when you ride or race outside if you want the data to the genuinely comparable unless you know for you it's the same.