And some say Kona is a real championship, but ITU worlds is not. I am not aware of anyone from the US who can or has bought a spot on TeamUSA
or got in via a lottery for just doing races.

More power to WTC for figuring our how to market and get so many to spend so much money to try and get into a single race.

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I'll have to see if I can find the email and link, but iM is also currently giving away 10 donation slots. Same basic format as 2 & 3 on your list except a suggested donation in place of the race entry fee. This still allows the alternate postcard submission format to allow the "no payment necessary" statement.

You're telling about a company that licensed sunglasses, bicycles, beds, etc. You're talking about a company that use use Olympic- distance tris as KQs. I can buy a slot via charity and go to Kona. Hmmm...

IRONMAN is a for profit corporation. It can do what it wants. People are still drinking the Kool Aid and wanting to participate.

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I'm not surprised at all by this. It seems WTC is trying to maximize profit by playing to a newer generation of triathletes which are more whiney and entitled, the triathlete who wants to do the bare minimum but get the same benefits as those who work their asses off. A lot more programs designed to give triathletes not willing to put in the work and qualify a chance to race in Kona. WTC for a while has been trying to make Ironmans as easy as possible to attract more participants. Right now basically any course that has hills, is not wetsuit legal or has a mass start is avoided by many athletes who want to do an IM the easiest way possible. Maybe its just the impression I have from belonging to triathlon facebook groups were the general opinion is that even if you go over 17 hours in your IM it should still count as a finish.

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2x Deca-Ironman World Cup (10 Ironmans in 10 days), 2x Quintuple Ironman World Cup (5 Ironmans in 5 days), Ultraman, Ultra Marathoner, and I once did an Ironman.

So you're not a "firm" believer that they can do what they want, more of a sort of believer.

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Ian

Assuming approx. 2100 spots on the pier.

The age group winner at every Ironman on the planet still is entitled to a spot in Kona.

So there are still approx. 1800 "competitive" athletes in Kona. Do you really think it matters that the other 300 are (possibly) not "competitive"?

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

FIRM. They can kill the race, open it up to anyone, whatever. Right now they seem to have a changing participation mix. It might eventually have an impact and it might not. If it does, they won't be the first company that shot their foot off.

Right now? Not at all. I simply wonder if there is a tipping point that changes how the KQ athletes view the race. Further, I wonder if one of the reasons that WTC has increased the size of the race at Kona is to accommodate all the non-KQ entries; and whether that increased size and associated draft-fest - that was widely discussed and denounced right here on ST - might have an impact. In the short run, nope, no impact whatsoever. But change is the only constant.

Ultimately they will do what their customer base pressures them to do. They have no more important customers than the frequent IM and 70.3 competitors who qualify for Kona. Maybe there needs to be a #QualifyForKona (or something more clever) Twitter campaign.

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Ed O'Malley
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If all the qualified athletes still make it to Kona, then the concern is

1) quality of the race (e.g. larger field, more drafting, more dummies on the course getting in the way)
2) watering down the accomplishment of racing at the world championship

I understand the criticism of WTC for #1, but for #2, I don't think a few hundred non-KQers diminishes anyone's accomplishment if they truly KQed. For example, an acquaintance of mine bragged via email to a large group that he was racing Kona in the executive division, what a great honor, bla bla bla. I put an asterisk on his "accomplishment".

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2017 races: St. George 70.3 May 6 | Madison 70.3 June 11 | IM Zurich July 30 | Chicago Marathon October 8

Nah, the newer generation may be different, just as the last one was, but they're no less deserving of credit where it's due or more deserving of blame where it's not than mine or yours. You're just coming off as a grumpy old man.

These are not "programs designed to give triathletes not willing to put in the work and qualify a chance to race in Kona". They are programes designed to maximise exposure and revenue. WTC have a product and this is how they're using it. What would you expect?
It's the very fact that people put Kona on a pedestal that is likely to be the cause of it losing status in the long run. I see comments from posters here all the time where their over-riding goal is to get to Kona. Fine, but when something is in demand and availability is low, the price will go up and the corruption will set in....
Better to set your goals/dreams outside of the control of others where you can. It doesn't make the goals/dreams less valuable, but it will prevent others from using them cynically for their own profit.

The "they are a private company; they can do what they want" argument is such a weak comment to make to these threads. Of course, they are and can. No one is calling the authorities to prevent them from doing this crap.

This is a forum for free expression, and the whole point is to give voice to people that care deeply about these topics. If you spend countless hours of your life training, suffer through injuries, kill your self racing, spend large sums of money, and deal with the many other sacrifices a KQ entails, then it is perfectly reasonable to get pissed about arbitrary decisions that WTC makes.

Bottom line: you should have to earn your way to Kona. I think the Legacy method is a fair way to earn it, but really it should favor people that perform at an elite level in IM distance events. All these other shortcuts are crap.

I totally agree that an individual's accomplishments are not watered down by what others do, especially with 85% of the field qualifying to get there. But what if it was 75%; would the KQ crowd (of which I am not a member) begin to think "Why bother?" I'm just curious if others think there is a tipping point at which the race begins to lose luster.

And why do you think they have to design programs such as the Legacy program to maximize revenue? Because theres a lot of triathletes out there who would never qualify and have no qualms about getting to Kona any way they can then forever commenting that they raced the IM World Championships. Its a sense of entitlement were triathletes feel they deserve something just because they want it, not willing to work for it. I would never participate in a race that I didn't qualify for because I think that certain things have to be earned. If this notion was shared among all triathletes do you think the legacy or lottery programs would exist? And I'm not a grumpy old man, I just get annoyed when someone trains 5 hours a week, crosses the IM finish line in over 17 hours and feels that they are entitled to calling what they did an official finish. Or the triathlete who thinks that even though he has never finished an IM in less than 16 hours that he deserves to race Kona.

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2x Deca-Ironman World Cup (10 Ironmans in 10 days), 2x Quintuple Ironman World Cup (5 Ironmans in 5 days), Ultraman, Ultra Marathoner, and I once did an Ironman.

Duly noted. Yes, perhaps my statement that they are a private company and can do what they want is trite. But since they have pretty much ignored all the Kona recommendations I see on ST again and again, sometimes that bears repeating.

I bet if you took a poll of all the legacy folks who got to race, not one of them would ever say they felt they deserved to race Kona. Not one. My bet is they are grateful and over the moon happy about it. Deserving? Not one.

In many ways, moving slots to this type of athlete is actually a benefit to the race, if you assume that Ironman wants to keep it at a given size.

The biggest reason for the drafting in Kona is NOT the size of the field; it's the depth.

If you cut Kona down to 1000 competitors, it probably wouldn't do much to spread the field out unless they ALSO shifted to wave starts, which really changes the nature of the race. They've already split men and women up, and of course have split the pros up, all of which are pretty big changes to the nature of the race.

Typically, in Kona, you have about 1000 athletes that exit the water between 1:05-1:10. That's what leads to those huge bike packs on the Queen K. The people in that group are typically the qualifiers, not the legacy folks and lottery winners. In other words, the addition of these athletes does very little to increase the congestion on the Queen K. And that's the real problem with growing Kona by adding even more folks at the pointy end. And that's why Kona is so, so congested, much more so than you'd expect from a one loop bike course.

EVERYONE wants to race in Kona. But letting in more fast people just contributes to all of the other problems that people say detracts from it being a world championship.

So you have three options:
1) make the race smaller and even harder to qualify for
2) add more fast people, which makes the drafting worse and which undermines the race
3) let in more slow people, which doesn't impact the drafting but which undermines some sort of theoretical "ideal" of the race.

I think it's obvious why option #3 is the one that WTC is taking.

As a point of reference, the 1000th place finisher in Kona 2016 finished in 10:52.
The 1000th place finisher at IMAZ, which is one of THE fastest and most popular races on the planet, finished in 12:37.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Out of interest, do you think those that qualify for the Legacy program haven't 'worked' for it?
I'm not really keen on a true 'lottery' type of slot, but I'd have no problem going on legacy. It's not so much a feeling like 'hey I'm one of the best so I'm going'...........its more like 'I've busted my ass trying/training/participating for 12+ years, now I get the chance to experience the kona race'.

They don't think they are deserving to race Kona yet do it anyway? Well then I don't know what to tell you about people who know they don't deserve something yet do it anyway.

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2x Deca-Ironman World Cup (10 Ironmans in 10 days), 2x Quintuple Ironman World Cup (5 Ironmans in 5 days), Ultraman, Ultra Marathoner, and I once did an Ironman.

What percentage of people who qualify are racing to try and win their age group? Probably not that many. I think as long as the pro field is competitive it rubs off on everyone else.

quote HuffNPuff]I am a firm believer that WTC has every right to do what it wants with IM Hawaii. I also believe that what makes an event a world championship is the quality of the competition, not the designation by the organizing body. If your event has better competition in the world than any other event in the sport (not necessarily the best it could be) then it is the defacto World Championship. That said, it seems WTC is starting to water down the quality for the 2017 Championship via the following:

1) Increasing the legacy entries from 100 (when it started) to 125 (last year) to 200 (this year) due to a growing backlog.
2) Offering 10 Kona slots in a 'lottery' for entering IM Boulder 2017.
3) Offering 10 Kona slots in a 'lottery' for entering IM70.3 Hawaii 2017.
4) Reserving 20 Kona slots in IM Canada 2017 for Japanese competitors based on their AWA scores.

And this doesn't include CEO slots, media slots, human interest stories, e-bay sales, and other entry methods that we probably don't know about. Assuming a total of about 300 such entries, the number of non-qualifying slots is approaching 15%. How far can WTC go with this before they begin to dilute their own brand?[/quote]

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Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

There is a difference between deserving and being grateful. In my eyes, if I needed a liver someday and I received one from a donor, I would be EXTREMELY grateful. Do I feel I deserve it? Nope. But I would still take it. I realize that is an extreme example but I bet you can think of a tonne of examples where people receive things where they aren't really deserving but they accept them anyway.
Also, I believe that the original Kona race handed down through the years HAD to have spots for age groupers in the form of a lottery. So I suppose they actually are deserving since these spots are keeping with the original intention of the Ironman race.

I think you're missing my point.
It's not that they have to. There are plenty legitimate well trained athletes available to take those spots. The fact is there are plenty others who are willing to pay for it and WTC is willing to modify it's product to take advantage of that. There have always been people willing to pay for the things others earn on merit. It's nothing new, although it may now be more accepted as a business practice to take advantage of this. You're a "grumpy old man" because you're blaming an entire generation for something that has little to do with them specifically. Put the blame where it belongs.

I fully agree with your attitude towards not pretending you are something you are not. If going to Kona wasn't the result of great athletic performances then there's no glory in having got there. What do you care that other people dlude themselves. Just don't lie to yourself and everything will be, mostly, alright.

If you think that you should race Kona after finishing 12 IMs in 16 hours instead of giving that slot to someone that actually put the effort in to train and missed qualifying by 30 seconds then theres not much I can say. If finishing 12 IMs is so much hard work why not just train and qualify after 2 or 3 IMs? I just hope that down the line when you talk about racing the Ironman World Championships you clarify that it was because you were a frequent customer to the WTC and not because you qualified.

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2x Deca-Ironman World Cup (10 Ironmans in 10 days), 2x Quintuple Ironman World Cup (5 Ironmans in 5 days), Ultraman, Ultra Marathoner, and I once did an Ironman.

you must not follow my posts very much. There is very little chance I will get into the legacy program. I have no love for the WTC, however, they have been improving. But you did ignore one piece of my previous post. It isn't like the legacy person who gets their slot gets to say "I am going to pass on my slot and want it to go to the dood that missed his slot by 3 seconds." As I said, these slots have been there since the beginning of the race for the "everyman". So yes they deserve those slots because the WTC says they do. If you have an issue with the race being "watered" down, don't do the race. Otherwise who cares? It doesn't diminish how super awesome you are.