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Next-Gen GPS will not use satellites
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One annoying thing about my run/bike Garmin devices is getting all ready, and then having to wait at the bottom of the driveway for it to sync up with the magical GPS satellites. It's gotten better over the past few years, but could stand to get even better. Seems DARPA (who developed GPS) is working on tech to eliminate the satellites from GPS. Pretty cool stuff:

http://www.extremetech.com/...n-without-satellites

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The Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency has unveiled its plan for the future, and it’s a huge shift, marked by new goals in four main areas. Arguably the biggest change is its plan to reinvent complex military systems and make them more modular, in an effort to ensure “superiority in the air, maritime, ground, space, and cyber domains.” Among the planned developments is a brand new global positioning, navigation, and timing system (GPS) that doesn’t depend on satellites and is resistant to jamming. According to a document (PDF page 30) posted Thursday, DARPA’s new system will be much more advanced than what we have now, and will eventually trickle down to our cars and phones.

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In the paper, DARPA hints at how it’s going to develop a positioning system without the use of satellites: “The need to be able to operate effectively in areas where GPS is inaccessible, unreliable or potentially denied by adversaries has created a demand for alternative precision timing and navigation capabilities. To address this need, DARPA is investing in radically new technologies that have the potential to deliver GPS-quality position, navigation and timing information for military systems, including novel inertial measurement devices that use cold-atom interferometry; chip-scale self-calibrating gyroscopes, accelerometers and clocks; and pulsed-laser-enabled atomic clocks and microwave sources.”
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Re: Next-Gen GPS will not use satellites [nickwhite] [ In reply to ]
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FWIW, if you have a device that also locks onto Russian satellites (GLONASS) GPS lock is almost instant once you're outside.

Regarding what DARPA is working on, they'll probably pull it off but it will be at least a decade until it's available to consumers.
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Re: Next-Gen GPS will not use satellites [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
FWIW, if you have a device that also locks onto Russian satellites (GLONASS) GPS lock is almost instant once you're outside.

Regarding what DARPA is working on, they'll probably pull it off but it will be at least a decade until it's available to consumers.

That, plus the fact that what they're talking about will be insanely expensive at first.

Spot

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Re: Next-Gen GPS will not use satellites [nickwhite] [ In reply to ]
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The secret to GPS is what is in the radio signals. There is nothing magic about them coming from satellites. That is just the cheapest and easiest way to get global coverage.

Before we had GPS, there was a non satellite based electronic navigation system. It was called LORAN and relied on earth based towers and radio signals. It was not quite as accurate as quick as GPS but could still get you with several feet of where you wanted to go if all was working well but it did not have full global coverage. Despite protests that it was a good backup to GPS if there were ever problems with the satellites, it was shut down in the US in 2010. Like the current GPS system, LORAN basically just a commercialized version of a top secret military navigation system. Only it was old having been developed and used during World War II. I'm sure it could be a lot better with modern technology . . . .
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Re: Next-Gen GPS will not use satellites [STP] [ In reply to ]
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Ahhh LORAN! I remember around the time we shut it down completely, there was some resistance to doing so on the basis of security, that it was either more difficult to jam or at least a backup to a jammed GPS.
Of course, the GPS chip you and I have in our Garmins is nowhere near as accurate as the DGPS used aboard ships, which removes the intentional error built into GPS signals.
This "new GPS" will be great, but won't come to your running watch for quite some time. GPS was created for military purposes and eventually opened to the general public, like the Internet and probably most other things DARPA has created.

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Re: Next-Gen GPS will not use satellites [iank] [ In reply to ]
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I'm guessing the government will use it against us before they give it to us.

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Re: Next-Gen GPS will not use satellites [spot] [ In reply to ]
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spot wrote:

That, plus the fact that what they're talking about will be insanely expensive at first.


But I don't think we really need to wait for DARPA.

There's already plenty of technology that uses terrestrial radio sources to augment GPS. Ever notice how quickly most phones get GPS compared to a Garmin, particularly after "teleporting" to a new location. That's because they can use the known location of connected "cell towers" to bootstrap the GPS calculation. It can take seconds instead of close to a minute, typically.

There are already chips out that localize based off Bluetooth (for indoors), FM radio, WiFi, and "cell tower" along with one or more of the satellite-based sources. These are already in a lot of high-end phones, like the new iPhone. And they're not insanely expensive since all those radio sources are both cheap and widely deployed.

Garmin et al, just don't use these chips yet. Possibly for technical issues in antenna packaging in really small devices like watches.

Sounds like DARPA is just copying this methodology. But likely using radio sources that are jam/spoof resistant. And also making the system available in areas where WiFi/BT/Cell infrastructure doesn't exist, like the middle of a desert.
Last edited by: trail: Mar 30, 15 7:31
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Re: Next-Gen GPS will not use satellites [nickwhite] [ In reply to ]
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Is Suunto using that Russian satellite tech? My Ambit 2S takes longer finding the HR belt than it does to find satellites.
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Re: Next-Gen GPS will not use satellites [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Next-Gen GPS will not use satellites [nickwhite] [ In reply to ]
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So back to INS? US mil aircraft already use INS as a primary method of navigation, and GPS is used to check INS accuracy and to recalibrate if necessary. That way if GPS signal is jammed the navigation is still available, albeit at reduced accuracy. The pilot needs to line up waypoints with geographic features to maintain accuracy. That's how it's been before GPS. Sounds like Darpa found a way to eliminate or at least minimize the INS drift, and wants to make the components smaller.
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Re: Next-Gen GPS will not use satellites [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
spot wrote:

That, plus the fact that what they're talking about will be insanely expensive at first.


But I don't think we really need to wait for DARPA.

There's already plenty of technology that uses terrestrial radio sources to augment GPS. Ever notice how quickly most phones get GPS compared to a Garmin, particularly after "teleporting" to a new location. That's because they can use the known location of connected "cell towers" to bootstrap the GPS calculation. It can take seconds instead of close to a minute, typically.

There are already chips out that localize based off Bluetooth (for indoors), FM radio, WiFi, and "cell tower" along with one or more of the satellite-based sources. These are already in a lot of high-end phones, like the new iPhone. And they're not insanely expensive since all those radio sources are both cheap and widely deployed.

Garmin et al, just don't use these chips yet. Possibly for technical issues in antenna packaging in really small devices like watches.

Sounds like DARPA is just copying this methodology. But likely using radio sources that are jam/spoof resistant. And also making the system available in areas where WiFi/BT/Cell infrastructure doesn't exist, like the middle of a desert.

I think that what DARPA is doing is trying to get away from any outside sources of information for the nav solution. No RF transmission is completely jam/spoof proof; even if initially difficult to jam (like GPS), somebody will eventually figure out a way to do it.

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Re: Next-Gen GPS will not use satellites [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
maybe something related to this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_low_frequency

Probably not. VLF = Very Long Wavelengths = Very Big Antennas (as in, subs that use VLF trail antennae that are hundreds of meters long).

Less is more.
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Re: Next-Gen GPS will not use satellites [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
maybe something related to this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_low_frequency

I think it would have to be low freq signal given atmospheric attenuation of higher frequencies. The amazing thing is how low power GPS signals are. Something like 120 DBm if i recall correctly.
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Re: Next-Gen GPS will not use satellites [spot] [ In reply to ]
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spot wrote:
I think that what DARPA is doing is trying to get away from any outside sources of information for the nav solution. No RF transmission is completely jam/spoof proof; even if initially difficult to jam (like GPS), somebody will eventually figure out a way to do it.

The article said "jamming resistant" and mentioned "microwave sources." No purely dead-reckoning system will ever be as accurate as a GPS-like system over a long period of time. Even with bazillion dollar gyros and accelerometers.
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Re: Next-Gen GPS will not use satellites [Big Endian] [ In reply to ]
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oh good point I was thinking only about the transmitters being huge

Big Endian wrote:
jackmott wrote:
maybe something related to this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_low_frequency

Probably not. VLF = Very Long Wavelengths = Very Big Antennas (as in, subs that use VLF trail antennae that are hundreds of meters long).



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Re: Next-Gen GPS will not use satellites [STP] [ In reply to ]
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LORAN? I was hoping for the return of Omega.

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Re: Next-Gen GPS will not use satellites [spot] [ In reply to ]
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On the day someone jams the GPS system, I'm probably not going to ride.
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Re: Next-Gen GPS will not use satellites [Big Endian] [ In reply to ]
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Furthermore, your ability to pinpoint location is related to the wavelength of the radio signal used...gps operates at around 20cm wavelength, and I'd wager that the garmin watches are accurate to around 20cm (accuracy depends on the phase accuracy of the chip, so fancy devices can exceed the wavelength in terms of accuracy). At VLF frequencies, the wavelength is around 10km, so if the system goes to VLF, the watch _might_ be able to tell the difference between the start and end of an olympic distance run, if you're lucky. Not particularly useful :-P

Assuming the phase accuracy of the watches doesn't change, at VLF the spatial resolution will be approximately 200,000 times worse than it is currently.
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Re: Next-Gen GPS will not use satellites [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
FWIW, if you have a device that also locks onto Russian satellites (GLONASS) GPS lock is almost instant once you're outside.

Regarding what DARPA is working on, they'll probably pull it off but it will be at least a decade until it's available to consumers.

Which devices support this commie tech you speak of?

My garmin 220 takes just a few seconds to catch a gps signal.
My older garmins could take aggravating minutes. But that was back in the day when stretching before a run was still considered ok, so it wasn't a big deal to stand around and wait. But now that we know stretching before running will kill you, I'm glad to have a quick catch of the 200!

Still, I'd considering buying the commie watch but I bet it only comes in pink :-(

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Re: Next-Gen GPS will not use satellites [Mendeldave] [ In reply to ]
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All the most recent Garmin devices support GLONAS, including (I think) your 220. I know the Fenix 3 and the 920XT do. That, however will increase the accuracy of the device, but not increase the time to lock. The watches are so much better at locking in the location now because they are able to pre cache the satellite location by downloading that data from the computer versus starting from scratch each time.
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Re: Next-Gen GPS will not use satellites [nickwhite] [ In reply to ]
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nickwhite wrote:

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... including novel inertial measurement devices that use cold-atom interferometry; chip-scale self-calibrating gyroscopes, accelerometers and clocks; and pulsed-laser-enabled atomic clocks and microwave sources.”

That'll never work

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