New to smart trainers, have a question

Sep 16, 17 9:39

Post #1 of 27 (4944 views)

So over this winter I'm planning to get a power meter and a smart trainer. I'd like to be able to ride actually race courses that I regularly race on (St. Anthony's, Chicago Triathlon, Naperville, etc) and courses I'm training to do (IMAZ and IMMOO bike courses for example).

Is this possible? How hard is it to do?

TIA

Ryne "TheMohawk" Hoover
Founder and CEO of The Mohawk Foundation, a 501(c)(3) charity
Raising funds for breast cancer and ALS research through endurance sports
Sponsored by: Rudy Project, INFINIT Nutrition, Brooks Running, MyBikeShop.com, TriTats, TriDot, T-Blocks, Wicked Audio, Zealios and Zone3. WE NOW SELL AIR RELAX! MESSAGE ME FOR YOUR BEST PRICE!
RyneHoover@TheMohawkFoundation.org

Re: New to smart trainers, have a question [TheMohawk] [ In reply to ]

Sep 16, 17 9:59

Post #2 of 27 (4927 views)

Depends on the software and availability of the course. I.e., shouldn't be hard to ride the profile of the course and FEEL the elevation. But to actually see video of the course moving as you ride...that's a higher level. I rode the NYC Tri with video on Cyclops Rouvy a few days ago, but I don't think they have video routes for the races you want.

Re: New to smart trainers, have a question [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]

Sep 16, 17 10:01

Post #3 of 27 (4926 views)

I don't need video of the course really, I'd just like to be able to ride the actually elevations and climbs of each one so I can be better prepared for real life riding on them.

I'm just not sure which programs would allow me to do this kind of thing.

Ryne "TheMohawk" Hoover
Founder and CEO of The Mohawk Foundation, a 501(c)(3) charity
Raising funds for breast cancer and ALS research through endurance sports
Sponsored by: Rudy Project, INFINIT Nutrition, Brooks Running, MyBikeShop.com, TriTats, TriDot, T-Blocks, Wicked Audio, Zealios and Zone3. WE NOW SELL AIR RELAX! MESSAGE ME FOR YOUR BEST PRICE!
RyneHoover@TheMohawkFoundation.org

Re: New to smart trainers, have a question [TheMohawk] [ In reply to ]

Sep 16, 17 11:20

Post #4 of 27 (4875 views)

pull up the course on BBS, then make a custom workout in TR or Zwift based on their race intervals. that will at least get you close

the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning

Re: New to smart trainers, have a question [Callin'] [ In reply to ]

Sep 16, 17 11:30

Post #5 of 27 (4864 views)

Callin' wrote:

pull up the course on BBS, then make a custom workout in TR or Zwift based on their race intervals. that will at least get you close

BBS? I'm new to some of the shorthand obviously LOL. I know what TR is at least :-)

Ryne "TheMohawk" Hoover
Founder and CEO of The Mohawk Foundation, a 501(c)(3) charity
Raising funds for breast cancer and ALS research through endurance sports
Sponsored by: Rudy Project, INFINIT Nutrition, Brooks Running, MyBikeShop.com, TriTats, TriDot, T-Blocks, Wicked Audio, Zealios and Zone3. WE NOW SELL AIR RELAX! MESSAGE ME FOR YOUR BEST PRICE!
RyneHoover@TheMohawkFoundation.org

Re: New to smart trainers, have a question [TheMohawk] [ In reply to ]

Sep 16, 17 11:41

Post #6 of 27 (4857 views)

best bike split

the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning

Re: New to smart trainers, have a question [TheMohawk] [ In reply to ]

Sep 16, 17 11:44

Post #7 of 27 (4853 views)

Best bike split (BBS)

https://www.bestbikesplit.com

You can upload ride files (.gpx) and it will give power requirements based on your weight, cdA, Threshold power and the altitude profile.

Re: New to smart trainers, have a question [the_thief] [ In reply to ]

Sep 16, 17 11:48

Post #8 of 27 (4845 views)

the_thief wrote:

Best bike split (BBS)

https://www.bestbikesplit.com

You can upload ride files (.gpx) and it will give power requirements based on your weight, cdA, Threshold power and the altitude profile.

Thanks! So it looks like I'm going to need at least 2 programs to be able to ride real course profiles then it seems? I suppose if it gives me an edge...

Ryne "TheMohawk" Hoover
Founder and CEO of The Mohawk Foundation, a 501(c)(3) charity
Raising funds for breast cancer and ALS research through endurance sports
Sponsored by: Rudy Project, INFINIT Nutrition, Brooks Running, MyBikeShop.com, TriTats, TriDot, T-Blocks, Wicked Audio, Zealios and Zone3. WE NOW SELL AIR RELAX! MESSAGE ME FOR YOUR BEST PRICE!
RyneHoover@TheMohawkFoundation.org

Re: New to smart trainers, have a question [TheMohawk] [ In reply to ]

Sep 16, 17 11:53

Post #9 of 27 (4840 views)

something is coming i can't tell you about, but i can tell you about it in a week.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: New to smart trainers, have a question [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Sep 16, 17 11:56

Post #10 of 27 (4833 views)

Slowman wrote:

something is coming i can't tell you about, but i can tell you about it in a week.

I'm sure it's something that will make my training so much better. When I started looking I couldn't believe this wasn't already a common thing, so I'm hoping someone finally stepped up and made it easier!

Ryne "TheMohawk" Hoover
Founder and CEO of The Mohawk Foundation, a 501(c)(3) charity
Raising funds for breast cancer and ALS research through endurance sports
Sponsored by: Rudy Project, INFINIT Nutrition, Brooks Running, MyBikeShop.com, TriTats, TriDot, T-Blocks, Wicked Audio, Zealios and Zone3. WE NOW SELL AIR RELAX! MESSAGE ME FOR YOUR BEST PRICE!
RyneHoover@TheMohawkFoundation.org

Re: New to smart trainers, have a question [TheMohawk] [ In reply to ]

Sep 16, 17 13:17

Post #11 of 27 (4793 views)

TheMohawk wrote:

Slowman wrote:

something is coming i can't tell you about, but i can tell you about it in a week.

I'm sure it's something that will make my training so much better. When I started looking I couldn't believe this wasn't already a common thing, so I'm hoping someone finally stepped up and made it easier![/quote

Maybe someone can prove me wrong, but I tried this 2 years ago, and honestly, I think the reason it's not a 'killer app', is because it sucks.

Not because it's boring.

It's because at least for me, when I downloaded an elevation GPS profile with the elevation (which would be matched by the Kickr resistance), even tiny rollers which are maddeningly frequent, make riding on your trainer totally wacky. Imagine having the power fluctuating every few seconds by +/- 50 watts - that's literally what it feels like most of the time.

I even used the 'flatten course' features on Perfpro but that didn't help it. Ultimately, I think your best solution if you want to do this is either buy a preprogrammed course video (on which the elevation will be flattened out for you without the rollers) or make your own course just simulating the biggest climbs as steady grades.

Hopefully someone else has found a better solution than I did for this, but I did the whole download off BestBikeSplit and other resources, and all of them totally sucked due to the power fluctuations. Was honestly quite a bummer, as originally, I'd valued highly the ability to 'virtual ride' my preferred/favorite/race courses. Luckily, seems like it's not a limiter in any way.

Re: New to smart trainers, have a question [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Sep 16, 17 18:53

Post #12 of 27 (4702 views)

lightheir wrote:

It's because at least for me, when I downloaded an elevation GPS profile with the elevation (which would be matched by the Kickr resistance), even tiny rollers which are maddeningly frequent, make riding on your trainer totally wacky. Imagine having the power fluctuating every few seconds by +/- 50 watts - that's literally what it feels like most of the time.

This is one of the first things people want to do when they get a 'smart trainer'.... and it's one of the first things to really let them down when they try it. And you've nailed it. The experience of 're-riding' courses pretty much sucks. Unless the course elevation data has been smoothed, smoothed, and smoothed again, it's exactly as you describe - whacky.

There's a lot of things smart trainers can do.... simulating a course accurately from elevation data isn't really one of them. I've always broken down courses into segments and created workouts based on those segments. Breaking something like a short 13km ITT down into 100m sections based on the demands of the course was 100% better than 're-riding' the rollercoaster I'd captured on the head unit. I suspect the same goes for longer TTs too.

Shane Miller - GPLama
YouTube | Web | Twitter | Instagram | Facebook | Strava

Re: New to smart trainers, have a question [gplama] [ In reply to ]

Sep 16, 17 19:07

Post #13 of 27 (4687 views)

Wahoo used to have an iOS app called "segments" I paid $30 for it back in the day and I loved it. I could ride against anyone of the strava leaderboard or myself on any segment on strava. It was a real shame when wahoo stopped supporting it.

Re: New to smart trainers, have a question [spntrxi] [ In reply to ]

Sep 17, 17 0:19

Post #14 of 27 (4603 views)

Have you checked bkool? I think you can just create a user and see if you can find the route? Maybe you can even just import a GFXfile and it will make the route, not sure though!
But have found several of the Ironman routes on there.

Re: New to smart trainers, have a question [gplama] [ In reply to ]

Sep 17, 17 7:05

Post #15 of 27 (4481 views)

gplama wrote:

Breaking something like a short 13km ITT down into 100m sections based on the demands of the course was 100% better than 're-riding' the rollercoaster I'd captured on the head unit.

Kew Boullie?

Re: New to smart trainers, have a question [TheMohawk] [ In reply to ]

Sep 17, 17 8:24

Post #16 of 27 (4440 views)

There are few ways you can do this:
- Load the course to your Garmin. Pair your Garmin to the trainer and ride the course. That's the simplest way to do it.
- Use Rouvy from Cycleops. You will have a map but you won't have an actual video.
- Use Bkool. This is probably the coolest option if you get it to work. Bkool will recreate the course for you in 3d with weather update and everything. I will have more about this hopefully after Interbike.
- BestBikeSplit and TrainerRoad.

Anyway, from a training perspective, you might be better off doing intervals on the trainer than riding a course or creating segments that will simulate the demand of a long climb or a long windy section. For example, when I did Ironman Cozumel years ago, I knew I will be hit with strong wind for about 13 miles x3. So I did 3x30minutes at tempo where I stayed at certain watts and never got out of my aero bars on my long rides.

SmartBikeTrainers.com || YouTube || My Twitter

Re: New to smart trainers, have a question [Tri Nut] [ In reply to ]

Sep 17, 17 11:13

Post #17 of 27 (4376 views)

I've searched in Rouvy and there are routes for Naperville and Chicago Tri, but not St Anthony's.

Re: New to smart trainers, have a question [TheMohawk] [ In reply to ]

Sep 17, 17 11:35

Post #18 of 27 (4356 views)

Take a look at BKool:

http://www.bkool.com/en-GB

I have a Tacx Neo and I tested this out for a couple of months. The user interface (When I last went on it) was a bit clunky, and I ultimately lost interest, but it will do what you are wanting. You can upload a GPX file from any course in the world and it will replicate it on your turbo trainer along with rain, wind, sun etc. I used it as I said for a couple of months, but in all honesty it is very dull just riding a computer simulation of an Ironman course or whatever it is you want to ride. Maybe you will like it more, but I would rather use Zwift for my virtual riding, or the Wattbike for just pumping out focussed intervals.

Re: New to smart trainers, have a question [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]

Sep 17, 17 12:21

Post #19 of 27 (4339 views)

HuffNPuff wrote:

I've searched in Rouvy and there are routes for Naperville and Chicago Tri, but not St Anthony's.

Very interesting...Now I just gotta wait to see what Slowman has to announce LOL

Ryne "TheMohawk" Hoover
Founder and CEO of The Mohawk Foundation, a 501(c)(3) charity
Raising funds for breast cancer and ALS research through endurance sports
Sponsored by: Rudy Project, INFINIT Nutrition, Brooks Running, MyBikeShop.com, TriTats, TriDot, T-Blocks, Wicked Audio, Zealios and Zone3. WE NOW SELL AIR RELAX! MESSAGE ME FOR YOUR BEST PRICE!
RyneHoover@TheMohawkFoundation.org

Re: New to smart trainers, have a question [MattyK] [ In reply to ]

Sep 17, 17 15:21

Post #20 of 27 (4279 views)

MattyK wrote:

Kew Boullie?

That course is a rollercoaster. Tour of Bright TT(s) is what I've broken down into segments.

Shane Miller - GPLama
YouTube | Web | Twitter | Instagram | Facebook | Strava

Re: New to smart trainers, have a question [gplama] [ In reply to ]

Sep 19, 17 5:51

Post #21 of 27 (4129 views)

I am interested in this as well. I'm gathering that the workout file gives a power based workout, but may not set inclines? Is that correct? How would one ride a course and try to go harder if the power is set from an existing ride?

Re: New to smart trainers, have a question [mvnsnd] [ In reply to ]

Sep 19, 17 7:10

Post #22 of 27 (4061 views)

mvnsnd wrote:

I am interested in this as well. I'm gathering that the workout file gives a power based workout, but may not set inclines? Is that correct? How would one ride a course and try to go harder if the power is set from an existing ride?

Re-riding a course is a slope based workout. The issue being the recorded altitude (inclines) are usually pretty erratic/jagged. I'd like to see a workout editor that allows us to set slope as opposed to ERG (which is a power based workout).

Shane Miller - GPLama
YouTube | Web | Twitter | Instagram | Facebook | Strava

Re: New to smart trainers, have a question [gplama] [ In reply to ]

Sep 19, 17 8:09

Post #23 of 27 (4030 views)

gplama wrote:

mvnsnd wrote:

I am interested in this as well. I'm gathering that the workout file gives a power based workout, but may not set inclines? Is that correct? How would one ride a course and try to go harder if the power is set from an existing ride?

Re-riding a course is a slope based workout. The issue being the recorded altitude (inclines) are usually pretty erratic/jagged. I'd like to see a workout editor that allows us to set slope as opposed to ERG (which is a power based workout).

Thank you for the explanation.

Re: New to smart trainers, have a question [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Sep 28, 17 16:58

Post #24 of 27 (3791 views)

Did you spill the beans yet?

Re: New to smart trainers, have a question [Kevin Curtis] [ In reply to ]

Sep 28, 17 17:38

Post #25 of 27 (3775 views)

Kevin Curtis wrote:

Did you spill the beans yet?

cobb. read what i wrote about how they set up their courses, syncing video with GPS, and either a bike, or a treadmill, inclining as the video or graphics-generated courses incline. what cobb is doing with the treadmill is not done anywhere else as far as i can tell. with bikes, it's cobb or it's wahoo's CLIMB, keeping in mind that the CLIMB is, afaik, done. cobb's is more than proof of concept, less than ready to ship.

plus, nobody has yet hiked his leg over a bike sitting on cobb's trainer.

wahoo, zwift, cobb, all impress me as companies that are ready to pounce all over:

1. virtual GROUP experiences, on graphical visuals, where...
2. the trainer (or treadmill) inclines as the course inclines, and...
3. the trainers get harder to pedal as the virtual course inclines, and
4. with cobb, you can make your own course, by shooting a video and sending it off to them.

all this seems to me to be pretty leading edge. not that i'm an expert. and we'll see. i'd love to know what i don't know from any of you who do know.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

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