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New Round of Aero Tests: Roues Artisinale - Zipp smacks everyone
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http://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-15505311.html

Zipp lays the smackdown. The only wheel that comes close is the Mark 1 TT, which looks an awful lot like it was designed by copying the 404 rim profile.




"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
Last edited by: Rappstar: Jan 22, 08 15:45
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Re: New Round of Aero Tests: Roues Artisinale - Zipp smacks everyone [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Well, that chart makes sense intuitively since it is the "deepest" wheel/rim.

But, one has to wonder, why no PX 101 or Blackwell 100 or even a Hed stinger or Jet 90 was not in there ...

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD
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Re: New Round of Aero Tests: Roues Artisinale - Zipp smacks everyone [rroof] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, it seems odd to have some wheels that would obviously do very poorly, and to leave out some of the more obvious competitors...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: New Round of Aero Tests: Roues Artisinale - Zipp smacks everyone [rroof] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Well, that chart makes sense intuitively since it is the "deepest" wheel/rim.

But, one has to wonder, why no PX 101 or Blackwell 100 or even a Hed stinger or Jet 90 was not in there ...
Or a Zipp 1080
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Re: New Round of Aero Tests: Roues Artisinale - Zipp smacks everyone [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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they certainly have made some progress with the new xentis
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Re: New Round of Aero Tests: Roues Artisinale - Zipp smacks everyone [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Bump...

I was disappointed in how poorly the Citec 30005 Aero 16 spokes wheel did...
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Re: New Round of Aero Tests: Roues Artisinale - Zipp smacks everyone [Chris G] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
they certainly have made some progress with the new xentis
No kidding - I am stunned to see where the Campy Hyperion is...no I dont have a set but they were one of the first with carbon rims, carbon hubs and ceramic bearings - stupid light too.

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: New Round of Aero Tests: Roues Artisinale - Zipp smacks everyone [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Note the speed at which the tests were done... 50km/h. How many of us can actually hold that pace?! These results are not valid for most of us as the results will surely be different at a lower wind speed.

Ducoach
Member Guru Cartel, EH?! since '01
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Re: New Round of Aero Tests: Roues Artisinale - Zipp smacks everyone [Ducoach] [ In reply to ]
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The results would be different in that the values would change, but the relative order should remain the same.

Styrrell
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Re: New Round of Aero Tests: Roues Artisinale - Zipp smacks everyone [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Outside of wheels not tested, Bontrager and Hed 60/90, there are a few other surprises. The Ritchey WCS 2005 tested better than a Zipp 404 2007. That means a non-dimpled 404 rim beat a dimpled 404. The Ritchey wheel has always done well with this particular testing group. Do they use a different protocol than everyone else?
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Re: New Round of Aero Tests: Roues Artisinale - Zipp smacks everyone [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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While this is great info to have I am not really sure how usable this information is as only Pro cyclists can run at these speeds for very long? And also was already stated, why was no other really deep section rims run (80mm or greater)? Also can anyone acually tell that there is a difference in 3-10 watts when you are out running considering that you should be producing 300-400watts anyway. Sounds like a lot of potential sales hipe to me, and I run the Zipp 404, so I should not be too bias.....
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Re: New Round of Aero Tests: Roues Artisinale - Zipp smacks everyone [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Wow - I must go out and buy some 808's. Man those things are fast. I'll get rid of the disc and put one on the back too, and I'll be doing sub hour 40k TT's no problem. :-)

I'll be quite happy with my relatively slow Hed 3 and 'must be slow cos it didn't make it to the list' PX 101, but thanks for sharing.



"Here's how you run a marathon. Step 1: You start running. Step 2: There is no step 2." - Barney (How I Met Your Mother)
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Re: New Round of Aero Tests: Roues Artisinale - Zipp smacks everyone [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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So the difference between my Easton Vistas and 404's is ~10 watts at 50 kph? I guess I'll tape the vents on my helmet, buy a wheel cover and take a vacation instead.

By the way, the right side of the chart is more interesting to me. Mavic managed to make a wheelset LESS areo than the K's.

"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"
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Re: New Round of Aero Tests: Roues Artisinale - Zipp smacks everyone [Ducoach] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]Note the speed at which the tests were done... 50km/h. How many of us can actually hold that pace?! These results are not valid for most of us as the results will surely be different at a lower wind speed.

Ducoach
Member Guru Cartel, EH?! since '01[/reply]

Somebody ALWAYS writes this whenever these type of test results are posted. THIS IS NOT TRUE.

The difference, from the perspective of fluid dynamics, between 50kph and 40kph and 30kph is no-existent. The way air moves over objects are these speeds is essentially identical.

500kph and 50kph are very different. These tests are run at 50kph because it magnifies the wattage difference, making it easier to detect with a scale. While the wattage savings at lower speeds will be reduced, the time savings will be higher.

I wish I could say "for the last time," but somehow this myth is perpetuated by people who have no experience or understanding of basic fluid dynamics.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: New Round of Aero Tests: Roues Artisinale - Zipp smacks everyone [gralden] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]While this is great info to have I am not really sure how usable this information is as only Pro cyclists can run at these speeds for very long? And also was already stated, why was no other really deep section rims run (80mm or greater)? Also can anyone acually tell that there is a difference in 3-10 watts when you are out running considering that you should be producing 300-400watts anyway. Sounds like a lot of potential sales hipe to me, and I run the Zipp 404, so I should not be too bias.....[/reply]

Wait, so you think people should be producing 300-400 watts, but that these speeds are only the speeds pro cyclists can run?

However, even at 300-400 watts (pro cyclist wattage), you would definitely notice 3-10 watts.

Most people will 150-250 watts for an Ironman. That is typical.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: New Round of Aero Tests: Roues Artisinale - Zipp smacks everyone [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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"Somebody ALWAYS writes this whenever these type of test results are posted. THIS IS NOT TRUE."

in this case i must assume (i did not follow the link) that the test was done in a head-on wind. otherwise, the slower you go, the more yaw you face. i'm not sure what the value is in performing a head-on test.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: New Round of Aero Tests: Roues Artisinale - Zipp smacks everyone [fiddlesandbikes] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Outside of wheels not tested, Bontrager and Hed 60/90, there are a few other surprises. The Ritchey WCS 2005 tested better than a Zipp 404 2007. That means a non-dimpled 404 rim beat a dimpled 404. The Ritchey wheel has always done well with this particular testing group. Do they use a different protocol than everyone else?

Two things:

First, I believe the Ritchey wheel has less spokes than the 404 tested (i.e. the rim isn't everything in drag) and second, the results are heavily weighted towards zero yaw conditions whereas the "dimples" supposedly are more of a benefit as you get out to 10-15 degrees of yaw in that they are claimed to delay flow separation from the rim at those angles.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: New Round of Aero Tests: Roues Artisinale - Zipp smacks everyone [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]"[font "Verdana,Arial,Helvetica"][black][size 2]Somebody ALWAYS writes this whenever these type of test results are posted. THIS IS NOT TRUE."

in this case i must assume (i did not follow the link) that the test was done in a head-on wind. otherwise, the slower you go, the more yaw you face. i'm not sure what the value is in performing a head-on test.
[/size][/black][/font][/reply]

They run the test the way tests ought to be done, in a sweep: 0-35-0. They then normalize the curve to what you see. So the 808 saves less relative wattage at 0deg, and more at the higher yaw angles.

http://accel15.mettre-put-idata.over-blog.com/0/02/72/10/Tests-Acheteur/base-de-donnees/gauss-900--.gif

That gives an example of the data they collect for each wheel.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: New Round of Aero Tests: Roues Artisinale - Zipp smacks everyone [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
"Somebody ALWAYS writes this whenever these type of test results are posted. THIS IS NOT TRUE."

in this case i must assume (i did not follow the link) that the test was done in a head-on wind. otherwise, the slower you go, the more yaw you face. i'm not sure what the value is in performing a head-on test.

Actually, Slowman, the tests are performed over a range of yaw angles. The "results" you see in the chart above are a weighted average of the drags, with the zero yaw condition weighted higher than anything else. They basically weighted it with a bell curve centered on zero.

An employee of Zipp (not Josh) pointed out on the WW forum that in their experience/measurement this isn't a realistic assumption, and I think they have a point (as you indicate as well). In evaluating wheels, they (Zipp) apparently use a "bi-modal" weighting (think "camel humps") with the peaks centered at ~12 degress IIRC. Using that, I think there may be a bit of "re-ordering" in the plot above...however, in the wheels tested, the 808 would most likely still be #1...and the R-Sys most likely still be the lantern rouge :-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: New Round of Aero Tests: Roues Artisinale - Zipp smacks everyone [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
[reply]"[font "Verdana,Arial,Helvetica"][black][size 2]Somebody ALWAYS writes this whenever these type of test results are posted. THIS IS NOT TRUE."

in this case i must assume (i did not follow the link) that the test was done in a head-on wind. otherwise, the slower you go, the more yaw you face. i'm not sure what the value is in performing a head-on test.
[/size][/black][/font][/reply]

They run the test the way tests ought to be done, in a sweep: 0-35-0. They then normalize the curve to what you see. So the 808 saves less relative wattage at 0deg, and more at the higher yaw angles.

http://accel15.mettre-put-idata.over-blog.com/...nees/gauss-900--.gif

That gives an example of the data they collect for each wheel.

Jordan, with the bell curve weighting they use, the zero yaw condition is weighted heavier than the other angles.

Now, if your point is that most reasonably aero wheels aren't much different in drag at zero yaw...yes, I agree ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: New Round of Aero Tests: Roues Artisinale - Zipp smacks everyone [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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True, the rim isn't everything and you are likely correct in that the Ritchey is a 16 spoke radial hub and the Zipp was likely 20. But, that doesn't supplant the fact that in this test and in prior ones, the Ritchey wheel tested near the top and nearly equal or better than it's more expensive basis of design. According to Rappstar the test was a sweep and the curve normalized, so the protocol is sound, even if weighted toward 0. To be honest, I haven't ridden either wheel, but it has always struck me that this particular wheel has done well and held it's own over the past few years. I do wish they would include the Bontrager Aeolus in these tests, or maybe not, ignorance can be bliss some times...
Last edited by: fiddlesandbikes: Jan 21, 08 7:47
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Re: New Round of Aero Tests: Roues Artisinale - Zipp smacks everyone [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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"the tests are performed over a range of yaw angles."

if this is the case, then the speed at which you ride your bike does matter, and 30mph is not going to give you the same results as 20mph "scaled up." furthermore — and maybe you can speak to this — i'd be more comfortable with some idea as to the protocol. were the results obtained at 5 degrees of yaw on the way toward 10 degrees, or on the way back down toward zero, or with some admixture of each?


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: New Round of Aero Tests: Roues Artisinale - Zipp smacks everyone [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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"They run the test the way tests ought to be done, in a sweep: 0-35-0."

if they do this, i don't see how the results are scalable for speed. not only is a slower rider going to see a greater average yaw, at certain speeds and yaws a wheel is subject to stall.

further, as i asked tom, do they sweep out and back? or just out?


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: New Round of Aero Tests: Roues Artisinale - Zipp smacks everyone [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
"the tests are performed over a range of yaw angles."

if this is the case, then the speed at which you ride your bike does matter, and 30mph is not going to give you the same results as 20mph "scaled up." furthermore — and maybe you can speak to this — i'd be more comfortable with some idea as to the protocol. were the results obtained at 5 degrees of yaw on the way toward 10 degrees, or on the way back down toward zero, or with some admixture of each?

I think this is where some confusion is coming in...the speed of the tunnel is chosen for a multiple of reasons, the most critical being the sensitivity of the balance being used. Higher speeds give higher forces and it's easier to "tease out" the differences between setups. In addition, 30 mph seems to be somewhat of a "standard" in the bike component testing arena. This makes it easier to compare drag values (although personally, I prefer to compare CdAs vs. the actual drag forces since it's basically wind speed and air property independent over the test ranges).

So...since the drag force is proportional to v^2, this can be used to figure out what the drag force AT A PARTICULAR YAW ANGLE will be at 20 mph. It's merely scaled by the 20^2/30^2 = .444

edit: The power, as reported in the chart, will be scaled with the cube of velocity, 20^3/30^3 = .30, or 30%

However, as you point out, when someone is travelling at 20 mph, for a given course and wind direction, they are MUCH more likely to be exposed to a higher relative wind yaw angle. So, as was pointed out above the bell curve weighting centered at zero yaw may not be the best way to evaluate the differences. In fact, it may be better to have higher yaw angles (e.g. 10-15 degrees) weighted more than zero yaw. This is apparently how Zipp evaluates wheels, both their own and competitors. Another option would be to keep the bell curve centered at zero, but "flatten" the weighting, so that higher yaw angles are weighted higher relative to zero.

I think it would be interesting to rig up an instrument that measures apparent wind angle on a bike and have a "typical" triathlete or Master's TTer ride some events and see what the true apparent wind distribution looks like. It sounds like Zipp (and perhaps Hed) have done this...but maybe only with elites?

So...to answer your questions. At a PARTICULAR YAW ANGLE, the drag force results at 30 mph DO scale down to 20 mph...it's just that at 20 mph the "most likely" yaw angle the wheel is exposed to is not necessarily going to be a bell curved centered on zero, like it would be for someone travelling at 30 mph. And if it is a bell curve, it may not be as "tall". That means that the weighting used to make up a chart like the one above should be different at 20mph vs. 30mph. Therefore, yes... I agree that it's not really valid to just take the weighted values above and scale them down to 20 mph. Make sense?

However, that doesn't mean that the test results aren't useful in making general comparisons between wheels. I just wouldn't put a whole lot of stock in small differences between wheels close together each other on the chart. Change the weightings, and they just might swap positions. Then again, like I said above, you can change the weightings all you want, but I still think the 2 endpoints (808 and R-Sys) would remain the same ;-)

Lastly, as far as the details of the protocol go...all I know is what is revealed in the link above. Judging by the data charts, it appears that the increments of yaw were at most 5 degrees, and may have been less. I don't know for a fact that they went 0-35-0 either, just that Jordan stated they did above.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Last edited by: Tom A.: Jan 21, 08 8:40
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Re: New Round of Aero Tests: Roues Artisinale - Zipp smacks everyone [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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"At a PARTICULAR YAW ANGLE, the drag force results at 30 mph DO scale down to 20 mph"

i'm not convinced of this. there is no basis for stating this as fact, absent a test showing that a large number of various and disparate wheels exhibit scalable results at various speeds. are you suggesting that, in general, fluid dynamics at yaws is scalable? in cars? planes? boats?

yes, i know that at 30mph you see more of a difference between wheels, so you can differentiate them better on a graph. but that's just for the convenience of those producing the tests. i don't see why the user should be asked to believe that the results are scalable just so the tester can produce a cosmetically desirable graph. the fact that historical tests have been done at 30mph is also no evidence that the results are scalable.

what *i* know from *this* test is that if you travel at 30mph over an entire course there is data — using a protocol that is unknown to me and lacks the specificity that would grant me comfort — that demonstrates that certain wheels will perform better than others, over a variety of yaw angles. i'm not saying the test is invalid. i'm saying this is what *this* test tells me.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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