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Re: My V02 Peak [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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Paulo,

You apear to be mixing up the concept of VDOT, the VO2 max estimate derived from race times and VO2 max, the actual maximal oxygen used per kilogram of body mass per minute measured pretty directly in a lab.

I completely agree that running economy has absolutely no affect on VO2 max!!!! VDOT on the other hand is greatly influenced by running economy. If you would like, I'll try to have Dr. Daniels email you to explain or you could read page 46 of Daniels' Running Formula second edition. You did mention that you have this text to Andy C. the other day. I understand that English is not your first language but this is rather simple stuff.

Hugh

Guess why I've been quoting your posts. Nice backtracking. Maybe I'll print this and show it to Dr. Daniels next week. Good timing, thanks.

And here's some friendly advice: If you try to be patronizing, at least get things right at first.

Paulo,

Please do show these to Dr. Daniels!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You misread my first post and are too egocentric to admit it. How have I back tracked? Explaining the concept in a bit more detail so that you might understand is hardly being patronizing. Please quote my whole first post and point out specifically what you disagree with.

I respect those who can admit they may have made a mistake. I stand by my first comment to the OP.

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: My V02 Peak [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Paulo,

You apear to be mixing up the concept of VDOT, the VO2 max estimate derived from race times and VO2 max, the actual maximal oxygen used per kilogram of body mass per minute measured pretty directly in a lab.

I completely agree that running economy has absolutely no affect on VO2 max!!!! VDOT on the other hand is greatly influenced by running economy. If you would like, I'll try to have Dr. Daniels email you to explain or you could read page 46 of Daniels' Running Formula second edition. You did mention that you have this text to Andy C. the other day. I understand that English is not your first language but this is rather simple stuff.

Hugh

Guess why I've been quoting your posts. Nice backtracking. Maybe I'll print this and show it to Dr. Daniels next week. Good timing, thanks.

And here's some friendly advice: If you try to be patronizing, at least get things right at first.

Paulo,

Please do show these to Dr. Daniels!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You misread my first post and are too egocentric to admit it. How have I back tracked? Explaining the concept in a bit more detail so that you might understand is hardly being patronizing. Please quote my whole first post and point out specifically what you disagree with.

I respect those who can admit they may have made a mistake. I stand by my first comment to the OP.

Hugh
I do too. Immensely.
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Re: My V02 Peak [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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Paulo,

I repeat, what portion of my original post is incorrect? You were so quick to jump on it and find fault with what you perceived as inaccuracy. Please enlighten us all. I will be quick to admit my mistake once it becomes clear. How was it that I backtracked?
There is no edit of that original post so I have no Idea how you infered that I felt running economy and VO2 max are somehow intertwinded.

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: My V02 Peak [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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This thread has become ST in a nutshell....

Eric
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Re: My V02 Peak [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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<< As a double check for your VO2 max test, it is interesting to run an open 10K time through a Daniels' calculator.
Doing so indicates that with a VO2 max of 48.1 one might expect to run a 42:45 10K.

correct me if I am wrong, but I didn't see anywhere in Daniels where he says VO2 max is the same as his VDot. Just because someone scores a 48 or a 58 or whatever, you don't necessarily look up that number in the VDot tables and assume that is what you can run. otherwise I'd still be running 30 minute flat 10km's like I was 20 years ago because my tested VO2 max is still 70.2 mlO2/kg/min.

Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org
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Re: My V02 Peak [Mike Plumb] [ In reply to ]
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Mike,

I always prefer to leave those like "sciguy" alone with their arrogant ignorance. It's a lot more amusing.

As you know, Daniels is very adamant to stress that VDOT should not be seen as VO2Max or like an estimate of VO2Max. Because there is no relationship between only VO2Max and VDOT, since VDOT is a measure of equivalent performances and it blends VO2Max and economy, the conclusion is that VO2Max should NEVER be used as the input in Daniels tables, like "sciguy" was implying.
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Re: My V02 Peak [Alex M] [ In reply to ]
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Based on Daniel's formula and my 10K PR (32:30), I should have a VO2Max of 66...yeah, right...my best lab measured was 58...:) I loved the VO2Max estimates for Lance in the marathon...he should have killed the Kenyans...:)

"Most of my heroes don't appear on no stamps"
Blog = http://extrememomentum.com|Photos = http://wheelgoodphotos.com
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Re: My V02 Peak [Alex M] [ In reply to ]
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Fitness is relative, what I mean is that it only makes sense to think about fitness in the context of "you", are you more fit than last year, or less fit than last year are sensible questions to ask. I wouldn't worry about comparing your lab values to others as a measure of fitness - compare your own performances on the same course year-to-year to find out if you are improving.

For what its worth, I have about the same moderate VDOT as your VO2max (~48-50, depending on race distance), assuming I understood that portion of Daniels book these should compare pretty well. I do fine in triathlons, usually near/at top in AG, and top 5% overall in my races (olympic & sprints). It's a race with 3 disciplines, not a treadmill test. If your running is only about average (like mine is) compared to your major competitors, run hard, but work on improving your swimming and biking to improve net peformance. Its your overall fitness/efficiency/skill (and pain tolerance!) in 3 sports that count in a triathlon.

------------------------------------------------------------
some days you're the windshield some days the bug
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Re: My V02 Peak [Alex M] [ In reply to ]
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Hello Alex M and All,

Hang in there. You may be able to increase your VO2. (Lose weight and train more)

I recently had a VO2 test at Fit Stop with Ken Nicodemus in Carlsbad CA and was given some of the following information. I came away with about 35 pages of information and test results. I was too fat (need to lose 10 lbs - I have lost 5 of them so far - which boosts my VO2 number) and need more training. (I am working on it) I will return for another test in a few months. (subsequent tests are reduced in price)

Ken's website has info posted about VO2 values.

In part:

For comparison, the average VO2 max is 40-45 ml/kg/min in 30 year old untrained males, and this value decreases with age. The same person who undergoes regular endurance training might increase to 50-55 ml/kg/min. An elite endurance athlete will have VO2 levels in the 70’s and 80’s although their VO2 max without training would probably be about 60-70 ml/kg/min. Below are a few examples of values for VO2 max in Elite Level Endurance Athletes:

http://www.fitstop-lab.com/VO2Max.htm

Also by David Hampson "VO2 max: What is it, Why is it so important, and how do you improve it?"

In part:

There are two ways to take VO2 max to its highest possible levels; increased volume and increased intensity.

Studies show that sedentary people can improve VO2 max by over twenty percent when they begin a running program of 25 miles per week.

By increasing mileage to 50 miles per week, VO2 max is improved a further ten percent. Unfortunately there are diminishing returns of VO2 max increases with increased mileage, so drastic improvements will not occur indefinitely.

Based on the available research, it seems that maximal VO2 max gains are achieved with a weekly running volume of 60 to 90 miles. Although increases in weekly mileage have shown to be particularly effective at increasing VO2 max, it is important to remember that mileage should be increased gradually, with careful attention towards preventing over-training and injury. Also, VO2 max improvements only occur if you are keeping running intensity the same as you increase your mileage. If you increase your mileage, but slow down your daily running pace, little improvement will occur in VO2 max.

This brings us to the topic of intensity, the second method of enhancing VO2 max. Intensity has actually been proven to be more potent enhancer of VO2 max than volume. For VO2 max improvement to occur, training runs should be conducted at an intensity of at least 70 percent of VO2 max. Seventy percent of VO2 max corresponds to a pace that will bring your heart rate to 75-80 percent of maximum. Running at intensities close to 100 percent VO2 max is the best thing you can do to elevate your VO2 max. This corresponds to about two mile race pace, so unfortunately this intensity cannot be maintained for very long, and training this hard every day would quickly lead to over-training and/or injury.

The best way to complete a significant volume of running at 100 percent of VO2 max is to use intervals of three to five minutes at 3k to 5k race pace with about equal recovery between each interval. By dividing your workload into intervals, you can run for more total minutes at 100 percent of VO2 max than if you attempted a continuous run.

One interesting note is that running faster than 100 percent of VO2 max will not improve it more than running at 100 percent of VO2 max, and is likely to leave you more fatigued and unable to complete a high volume of work. Faster running is necessary to enhance other performance factors which I won't go into here, but when your focus in on enhancing VO2 max, a higher then 100 percent intensity should not be used.

http://www.coolrunning.com/...raining/hampson.html

Cheers,

Neal

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster
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Re: My V02 Peak [Mike Plumb] [ In reply to ]
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<< As a double check for your VO2 max test, it is interesting to run an open 10K time through a Daniels' calculator.
Doing so indicates that with a VO2 max of 48.1 one might expect to run a 42:45 10K.

correct me if I am wrong, but I didn't see anywhere in Daniels where he says VO2 max is the same as his VDot. Just because someone scores a 48 or a 58 or whatever, you don't necessarily look up that number in the VDot tables and assume that is what you can run. otherwise I'd still be running 30 minute flat 10km's like I was 20 years ago because my tested VO2 max is still 70.2 mlO2/kg/min.


"By using standard values for running economy and by having a timed Performance over at least one running distance, a fitness ("VDOT") value can be assigned to you for training and race-prediction purposes. Table 1 provides this information. To use this VDOT Table, you merely look up a time associated with a distance you have recently run and read across to the column headed by "VDOT". VDOT is an adjusted V02max (which may or may not match a laboratory-generated V02max), which tells you how you might race for other distances (in the row, associated with the same VDOT), and also tells you how first to perform different types of training."


Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: My V02 Peak [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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Mike,

I always prefer to leave those like "sciguy" alone with their arrogant ignorance. It's a lot more amusing.

As you know, Daniels is very adamant to stress that VDOT should not be seen as VO2Max or like an estimate of VO2Max. Because there is no relationship between only VO2Max and VDOT, since VDOT is a measure of equivalent performances and it blends VO2Max and economy, the conclusion is that VO2Max should NEVER be used as the input in Daniels tables, like "sciguy" was implying.

Paulo,

There certainly is a relationship between VDOT and VO2Max. The whole VDOT system was derived to show the relationship between performance and typical oxygen utilization. As I mentioned in my very first post, actual performance is influenced by economy while the lab test isn't. You have attemped to twist my recommendation of comparing the OP's actual performance to his lab test.

As my brother often says don't get into a "pissing contest with a skunk". I was studying these concepts when you were in diapers. Your fluid dynamics PHD does not intimidate me and your forum bully techniques have gotten very old for many of us.

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: My V02 Peak [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Mike,

I always prefer to leave those like "sciguy" alone with their arrogant ignorance. It's a lot more amusing.

As you know, Daniels is very adamant to stress that VDOT should not be seen as VO2Max or like an estimate of VO2Max. Because there is no relationship between only VO2Max and VDOT, since VDOT is a measure of equivalent performances and it blends VO2Max and economy, the conclusion is that VO2Max should NEVER be used as the input in Daniels tables, like "sciguy" was implying.

Paulo,

There certainly is a relationship between VDOT and VO2Max. The whole VDOT system was derived to show the relationship between performance and typical oxygen utilization. As I mentioned in my very first post, actual performance is influenced by economy while the lab test isn't. You have attemped to twist my recommendation of comparing the OP's actual performance to his lab test.

As my brother often says don't get into a "pissing contest with a skunk". I was studying these concepts when you were in diapers. Your fluid dynamics PHD does not intimidate me and your forum bully techniques have gotten very old for many of us.

Hugh

Dear sciguy,

Your view of the VDOT system is your own personal view and does NOT reflect the view of the author, Jack Daniels. Your posts are here for everyone to see. They clearly show what you got wrong and where, and your pathetic atempts to backtrack.

I for one would be embarrassed and ashamed to be schooled by someone with no academic background in the subject. Yet you're not ashamed, you still come back and attack me. You made this a pissing contest, not me.

You are the skunk here, and I am done with you.
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