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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
It doesn't matter how tough the climbs are. What matters is who shows up to win. At the TdF that is the best riders in the world. Not so at the other tours.


Sorry master, you are always correct, the TDF is so superior and is the world champs for hill climbing and the best riders.
I mean, people like Alberto or Quintana wouldn't race the Giro or Vuelta would they.

I sometimes forget this is a mostly American forum, TV coverage and the Armstrong factor are strong.
Last edited by: TriguyBlue: Jul 23, 16 20:06
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [TriguyBlue] [ In reply to ]
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I'm amazed people {likely europeans} gets all bent out of shape when people {likely americans} say the Tour is where almost all the GC guys peak for with most teams. I said this earlier this week, Americans aren't saying the Tour is the end all be all of cycling. How most the top GC guys prepare for a season shows how important the Tour is. I always assumed that was the acceptable case in cycling, where the top GC guys were always priming for the Tour, and yes would race other key races, but *always* with an eye to the Tour. Again that wasn't taking away from other great races, just that cycling itself plays up the Tour, not some american tv. How GC teams prepare their teams, their rosters, etc. And yes there are the classic teams that will likely forgo a GC guy for a sprinter guy at times, or there will be an italian who only dreams about the Giro.

How many times did Contador do the Giro and yet the talk would always include if it would let him do the 'double'. OR how many riders do the Vuelta, only AFTER a shitty TOUR. i've never heard a top GC guy 'oh yeah mate, i'm just riding this tour as a warm up for the vuelta'. Yes they'll double back, but it seems only after a disappointing exit at Tour.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: Brooks Doughtie: Jul 23, 16 20:24
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [Brooks Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Brooks Doughtie wrote:
How most the top GC guys prepare for a season shows how important the Tour is.

Everyone who follows cycling knows this. Doesn't matter where they live.
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
Brooks Doughtie wrote:
How most the top GC guys prepare for a season shows how important the Tour is.

Everyone who follows cycling knows this. Doesn't matter where they live.

Your claim was that the tdf was hill climbing world champs, not that it is the bigger race. For hill climbing the Giro is superior, the TDF has the better marketing and field's some years.

The giro is more what the tdf used to be before it became a hype fest that is often predictable.
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [TriguyBlue] [ In reply to ]
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Strawman much? Go back and read what I wrote.

And in the future when I just ignore you, please be assured it isn't by accident.
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
Strawman much? Go back and read what I wrote.

And in the future when I just ignore you, please be assured it isn't by accident.


Lmao
You go into every thread and say "you're wrong" bet plenty ignore you to.

It's a thread of opinions, just the other complaining about the commentators and the other asking if the sport is on the decline. Obviously some people are a bit tired of the format, flat, Pyrenees, Alps and Paris with the same commentators year after year.
Last edited by: TriguyBlue: Jul 23, 16 22:30
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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No, no, no.
You've got it all wrong. The whole race every stage should be an ITT. Long, short, hilly, windy everything. They did it about a century ago, and they could do it again. 200km stages, all alone on road bikes only. TT bikes for designated TT stages (ie stages less than 50km).
It'd be a disaster to watch, but very interesting. And I reckon someone like Matt Hayman or Luke Durbridge could win as they just chug along on the front for hours anyway.
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [toecutter] [ In reply to ]
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200k? you mean 400+k? they also generally had a restday after every stage from what i've been told. but yah, as you said, not very spectator friendly. should the riders also carry their spare tubies around their bodies? ;) and bring carbon patches to mend their frames in case of breakage
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [Brooks Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Brooks Doughtie wrote:
A few thoughts i've always had. Why not finish every mt stage with a mt top finish. I get that descending is a critical skill, but it would seem to me to have 2 mt top passes back to back where someone could attack knowing that if they stayed away or atleast pushed the descend, they would only have to climb again. How many times have we seen the Tours won on descending skills? I'd say very very few in terms of it mattering because more times than not, the mass of the group with the long run into town finishes, leaves the time gaps smaller. Never understood why they'd have a HC climb and then a 25k run in down to the town finish, and majority of the time, riders would close any gaps that formed on the climb....and i'll say again, yes i understand descending is a skill and should be used. They can use it on every other mountain climb that builds to the ultimate mt. top finish for mountain stages.

I actually thought it was badass to have the final day iTT. Of course that leaves everyone on edge until the very end, and maybe the riders like the 'free' day that the final stage has finally become. So my question is, why did they have last stage as iTT and what caused them to go away from it?

Hey Brooks, the only real reason why they don't have many of those stages finishing on the mountain top is because there is literally nothing in terms of infrastructure on those mountains. It's really just an ancient billygoat trail paved over with nothing there in many cases or a single "building" that has a restaurant. No parking lot, no space for Tour caravan or fans. A few years ago when they has the summit finish on Galibier I think they literally just had a "line" at the finish with some timing and the riders immediately coasted down the other side around 5K down where the rest of the support could be parked. There is literally only a narrow road at the top. Yesterday on Joux Plane (and every time they have used it), the finish is down in Morzine where they have a town and infrastructure. I am still boggled by how they pulled off the finish on Galibier a few years ago wrt logistics. Most of the mountain top finishes have to happen at ski resorts which are typically a fair climb up from the valley (in that part of Europe, the valley is often green all winter, and you have to go 2000-3000 feet up to get on snow, thus the long switchback roads to the resorts like Alpe d'Huez or Megeve or Les Deux Alpes.

I do agree that it would be cool to have a final day ITT. At least that would keep us all on edge as you said. They did this a few times in recent memory in the Giro.
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Personally I'd like to see ITT's replaced with TTT's. A team time trial really is a wonderful event. Very technical, more than meets the eye. It would give smaller guys like Quintana a better shot in the overall.

...or

You could make the ITT's way more technical. Have them take place in urban settings with 90 degree turns and U-turns to make it less of an overall power game (favors taller/bigger guys on flat courses) and more of a test of the rider's entire power curve in addition to their technical skills (though they all are top notch in that regard).
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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You don't need to change the race, you need to change the governance and financials of the sport of professional cycling.

Sky has the biggest budget, therefore they have the best chance of winning the TdF. End of story.
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]
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This^^^^ Did anyone catch the Tinkoff owners ' comments at the end of his interview with Christian, Bob and co. He kept saying the sport needed to be fixed financially to be more like soccer or other US team sports where the teams are not just paid for by the sponsors. His final comments after asking if he was speaking to an American audience were pretty funny too.
Last edited by: TriDave: Jul 25, 16 20:10
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [TriDave] [ In reply to ]
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I hear you guys on Sky having the largest budget, but rather than everyone becoming more poor, what if there were 20 teams with $30M budgets...that would be better for the sport then everyone becoming equally poor and rider financial payouts being low. As it stands WTC pays out more in prize money in its series than the ASO pays out in 21 days at the Tour. Teams are definitely not getting a reasonable piece of the TV rights.
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
I hear you guys on Sky having the largest budget, but rather than everyone becoming more poor, what if there were 20 teams with $30M budgets...that would be better for the sport then everyone becoming equally poor and rider financial payouts being low. As it stands WTC pays out more in prize money in its series than the ASO pays out in 21 days at the Tour. Teams are definitely not getting a reasonable piece of the TV rights.

Couple of thoughts....

1) I don't think you can find enough sponsors to cover 20 teams @ $30M a pop.

2) prize money has always been of secondary consideration in cycling. Riders make their money from their salaries. Prize money is split up amongst the team members.

3) totally agree re: TV rights.

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Is the TOUR broken? Why does it need fixing?

If you implement new rules....what is your intent? Are you trying to bring a larger number of riders into the mix? At what cost (to the riders who've dedicated their professional lives to training for the way it's always been done)? Is that "fair" - because it brings more riders into contention?

Sounds like affirmative action, to me.
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [nc452010] [ In reply to ]
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Depends on what your motives are.

Is it pure racing or is their an entertainment side of things? For most sports, viewership matters in terms of the product on the field, and things are constantly evolving to improve the product.

That happens all the time in sports, hockey changes rules to improve scoring, football (NFL) has changed rules to be more offensive minded, baseball is speeding up the game, etc.

That's the nature of sports.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [Brooks Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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They have other races that cater to other types of riders. The Olympics are a good example.

Every country has a TT and road champion. They even have grand tours that don't follow the same format as the TdF.

My only point was/is.......it's the most popular (at least on this side of the pond) cycling race in the world. If you change the format, are you doing it to identify the greatest all-around cyclist in the world......or, are you doing it to get more ratings (by allowing more people to be competitive)?

What's next?......Cavendish wins the TdF?.....lol
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [nc452010] [ In reply to ]
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nc452010 wrote:
What's next?......Cavendish wins the TdF?.....lol


D'Wife & I were watching the finish on Sunday [well, mostly I was], and as they were winding up for the final sprint:

"How many more days are left?"
"About a minute, actually"
"Where's Froome?"
"In the back"
"Is he gonna lose?"
"Nah, it's all over"
"So who won"
"He did"
"Then who's the guy in the white shirt who crossed the finish first"
"Andre Greipel, they call him the Gorilla"
"So, he just won?"
"Yeah, he won for today"
"But Fromme won the whole thing? Even though he's in the back"
"Yep"
"That's fucking stupid"
"And that green shirt is that wheelie guy you like"
"Yes, Peter Sagan"
"What's the green shirt for?"
"Points. He finished near the front for more days than the rest; won a couple days too"
"Even though Froome was in the back, again?"
"Yep"
"That's really fucking stupid"

There ya go

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
Last edited by: RandMart: Jul 26, 16 7:08
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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What about the team component and tactics?

A number of well placed GC riders, Yates, Valverde, Porte etc. all said, that on the big mountain stages they had thoughts and intentions of, being more animated and aggressive, but because SKY set such a wicked tempo, just prior to and early on, on the big climbs in the GC group, because you were already near the limit, attacking them/Froome was next to useless.

And we saw that, any attempted attacks, typically went no where and when they, really did stick and get some ground and stick for at least bit, the rider would invariably blow up (Mollema).

The only attacks and moves of any kind that had an impact on the GC were Bardet's late move to win a stage and move up to 2nd, and Kreuzinger's savvy, early move, with some massive help from Sagan, to leap up a few places and into the top-10.

Otherwise, for those in the top-10 on the GC, it was an exercise, of ounce there, just sit in the Yellow Jersey group for as long as you can, on every mountain stage! I have the hugest respect for Nairo Quintana, but he never went on the offensive ounce, just stayed steady, and on wheels for the most part, right into 3rd place.

What's odd is that, while Froome won by 4+ minutes, it was one of the closest TDF's ever from 2nd - 10th! But there really was not that much action among the final 2nd - 10th places.

More on this here - http://cyclingtips.com/...gc-battle-so-boring/


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [RandMart] [ In reply to ]
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RandMart wrote:
nc452010 wrote:
What's next?......Cavendish wins the TdF?.....lol


D'Wife & I were watching the finish on Sunday [well, mostly I was], and as they were winding up for the final sprint:

"How many more days are left?"
"About a minute, actually"
"Where's Froome?"
"In the back"
"Is he gonna lose?"
"Nah, it's all over"
"So who won"
"He did"
"Then who's the guy in the white shirt who crossed the finish first"
"Andre Greipel, they call him the Gorilla"
"So, he just won?"
"Yeah, he won for today"
"But Fromme won the whole thing? Even though he's in the back"
"Yep"
"That's fucking stupid"
"And that green shirt is that wheelie guy you like"
"Yes, Peter Sagan"
"What's the green shirt for?"
"Points. He finished near the front for more days than the rest; won a couple days too"
"Even though Froome was in the back, again?"
"Yep"
"That's really fucking stupid"

There ya go

I don't necessarily disagree with your wife :)

I find it highly fucking stupid that a person HOURS down in the standings is lauded for being fast for a few hundred meters of a 21 day race. I just don't get it (MY issue). It's like hitting a home run.....flipping your bat.....and taking 2 minutes to round the bases........when you're down by 12 runs.
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [nc452010] [ In reply to ]
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nc452010 wrote:
It's like hitting a home run.....flipping your bat.....and taking 2 minutes to round the bases........when you're down by 12 runs.

Yeah, I can't stand Ryan Howard, either

Only hits them when they do absolutely zero good

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [RandMart] [ In reply to ]
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. . . ."Even though Froome was in the back, again?"
"Yep"
"That's really fucking stupid"



. . and this explains why, the Tour de France, and bike racing in general is so poorly understood, generally in North America. It also explains why when Lance Armstrong was winning the Tour de France there was a huge surge in interest in and engagement in road cycling, at least in the conetxt of the Tour de France. This - they could understand. Lance wins the Yellow jersey. It's easy to get.

If Armstrong had won 7-Green Jerseys(?), I'm guessing the impact would have been now where near what it was.

For me and for the many true fans of bike racing, there are the winners which needed to be honored but there are so many other nuanced things going on, in any bike race, that are beyond the comprehension of North Americans. The concept of being the absolute hero of the race, but not the winner, is something that is lost on them.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I like watching the tour and will continue to do so as is... that said, Froome and Sky are heads and shoulders above other teams right now. Once he got the yellow... Contador exited, Quintana couldn't take off in the mountains... it was a done deal unless Froome crashed out.

He really rode an awesome race this year. The Tour is fine as is... if I changed anything I'd say the safety issues that came up this year could be addressed... less motorcycle and crowd control in some areas.
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [xeon] [ In reply to ]
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if I changed anything I'd say the safety issues that came up this year could be addressed... less motorcycle and crowd control in some areas.

And some rule that time will not be lost in the last few km of a sprint stage so the GC guys don't have to have lead out trains too.
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [champy] [ In reply to ]
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champy wrote:
if I changed anything I'd say the safety issues that came up this year could be addressed... less motorcycle and crowd control in some areas.

And some rule that time will not be lost in the last few km of a sprint stage so the GC guys don't have to have lead out trains too.

Yeah, I have long advocated taking the GC time @ 3K to go so the GC guys and their teams can GTF out of the way. Having the 3K rule giving riders the same time only if there is an incident doesn't solve the problem of too many riders trying to get up front....if there is a gap and no incident, you lose time.

Take the GC time @ 3K to go....such an easy change to make.

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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