I think some of that depends on your change in bar width. With the move from 26" wheels, there has also been a trend to go with a wider bar with a shorter stem to get better leverage to overcome the larger tire contact patch and/or improve the steering response time. With that said, I still run a relatively narrow bar and shorter stem, but I crash and hit my head a lot, so what do I know? lol!

My gripe with the wide bars is ergonomics. Not only can you not sneak between trees as well, but those 800mm+ wide bars with 8 degrees of backsweep put the wrists in a horrible position. SQlab is doing 12 degree and 16 degree backsweep bars that are a bit more practical from an ergonomic perspective.

But, I digress. I'm working on a formula for this. What is your current bar width and what is the new bar width? As an added bonus, can you measure your shoulder width and overall arm length, from fingertip-to-fingertip?

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Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador

A 100mm stem is not long.

Depends on the terrain you ride. Going down steep loose stuff on a long and low bike is no fun. My Scalpel is an XL and I run a 90 mm stem on it, my Habit has a 60 mm stem.

I'm actually on very narrow bars, they're narrower than most people's. I'll measure when i get home.

I'm pretty small and normally ride with 38cm road bars. I haven't decided on a new bike yet but will likely keep the bars near the same width.

I have a list of bikes I'm interested in. They are all 650b

Giant anthem small
Liv pique medium
Scott Contessa spark med
Scott spark small
Cannondale scalpel small
Felt decree small

Edit
Currently riding a cannondale RZ120 (26)

Going to be used for Xterra races.

Flat twisty to mountains of Utah

5 years ago this would probably have been true, the last few years have seen a major shift in mountain biking geometry as people have realised that the traditional mountain bike geometry that was copied from road bikes wasn't the best for a completely different sport. Bikes have evolved to have a longer top tube and a shorter stem, having the effect of shifting your weight behind the front wheel making you far less likely to go over the bars. 60mm is as long a stem as I would want to run on my mountain bike (assuming the top tube is long enough to give you the required reach). The less downhill oriented your riding, the less significant I guess, but mountain bike geometry isn't like it was 5 years ago.

A longer wheelbase bike will be far more stable, (none of the bikes you mention have a particularly long wheelbase) and, though they require a slightly more aggressive technique will corner just as quickly as a shorter wheelbase bike, so I would definitely go longer, using the shorter stem to give the reach. For the use you are suggesting I'd say something like the Spark with a 50 or 60mm stem would be perfect. Any longer than that on a bike that small and your weight will be too far forwards. Weight balance is far more important on a mountain bike than a road bike!!!

Interesting. I didn't know this. Sold my MTB probably about 10 years ago....

100mm stem is fine!
The short stem thing is a sham. Same for really wide bars- People talk about going for a short stem/wide bar like it makes the bike ride better- but it doesn't.
Too short will put the bars sort of under you- handcuffs you in some situations.

Think of stem and bars as being fit driven- they should put you in the correct position for climbing, descending, cornering, etc.. and they should be comfortable for long rides.

I like my mtb stem length to provide a reach that is longer than the tops of my road bike, but shorter than the hoods.

When riding on the flat, yup, a long stem won't make much difference. Personally, when the going gets rowdy, either steep or really technical, having my weight further behind the front wheel makes a huge difference to confidence - nobody likes that 'over the bars' feeling. I quite agree though that if the bike isn't designed for a short stem, it will feel horrible. Trying to replicate the fit coordinates of a road bike on a mountain however doesn't strike me as a smart move. I've never taken my road bike over 6 foot drop offs, nor ridden down rocky, rooty banks that are too steep to walk down, and there's a reason for that! I guess it's horses for courses, and if you're just riding flat trails as training then why not have the bikes set up the same. Bar width is kind of the same - if you've only got narrow shoulders don't try riding 800mm bars. I am fairly narrow and tried 780mm bars and they felt horrible to me - around 740mm is probably perfect, compared to my road bike of 380mm. I rode my 'old school' (2009) mountain bike recently with 670 bars I think, and it felt horrible, though I liked it at the time!

ETA The part about stem length being driven by fit coordinates I do, of course, agree with - it's just about choosing the correct bike geometry in the first place, and thinking more about its intended use that is more important in mountain biking. Choose a bike that will fit you when it's got a short stem on, not one that needs a 100mm stem to fit.

Just measured my bars

I'm at 600mm (23.5")

Looks like you're looking mostly at full suspension bikes. I'd just like to add my $0.02 to say I think you're making the right choice. Last year I test rode a bunch of bikes (a few HTs and a bunch of FSs). After each test ride (which usually included going over a ton of roots) I'd do a short run afterwards. I noticed a very distinct trend that my legs felt better running after riding on a full suspension bike. That said.... I ended up buying an F-Si because I got an absolutely screaming deal on it. I love it but I sort of regret it at the same time.

I rode an Anthem, a Scalpel, and a Spark (amongst others). Between those two, I'd go with the Anthem. The Spark and the Scalpel very much had on/off personalities depending on whether or not you had the rear shock open or closed. The Anthem you can just leave the shock open and pedal away. I suppose if you're a really good rider off-road (I'm not, lol) that binary nature and the ability to control it might be beneficial. For an inexperienced off-road rider such as myself I think simpler is better.

I've purposely sought out shorter wheelbase bikes.

Three of those bikes I've test ridden and the small anthem felt long but that's likely because my current bike is nearly 2 inches shorter in length. 1054 vs 1109 I'd probably get used to it quickly.

The anthem and small men's spark are very similar as well as the scalpel and med contessa spark.

I really like the pique, I've ridden the xs and small, both I liked and I could really throw around the XS on the trail. The small was better, I didn't ride the medium, it's on the tall side and the small is on the short side (lengthwise)

I've never touched a scalpel or a Felt Decree. I've never even seen them but they both get good reviews.

Thanks everyone for your insight

Thanks, I a fairly decent mountain bike rider and am currently riding a full suspension bike.

At first I didn't like it and rode it locked out for a year. I then started to work with it and set up the rear end really stiff, it worked well for me, it changed the way I ride a bit in that I now sit down on really rough stuff and the bike just soaks up the bumps.

I've been leaning towards the pique and anthem but I want to keep an open mind. The only thing I really don't want to do is go back to a 29er.

Thanks for your insight on the personalities of those bikes.

Don't ever do that on a mountain bike. The most effective suspension you have is your arms and legs - use them all the time. The only time you should be sat down on a mountain bike is if you are pedaling, if not you should be stood up, but I digress. Both the Pique and Anthem are good bikes, as are the others in your list that I know about. You won't go wrong with any of them, but buy such that you fit the bike as it was designed (give or take 10mm), don't buy needing to add 40mm to the stem the bike comes with. And seriously try getting used to wider bars. Not stupidly wide - based on the size of bike you're going for I'd anticipate you wanting between 700-740mm. They'll feel strange to start with but stick with it - once you get used to them you'll wonder how you ever managed to ride short bars! I'd also suggest that at your size, staying away from a 29er is probably a good plan.

Thanks again for your thoughts :)

Relative to your current setup, here's what I would do (I work with pretty much all XC folks here in central Indiana, but had a few folks at Leadville last year using the same setup philosophy) - go with a 80 or 90mm stem and the bike with the reach that will get you to where you are now. The reason for this is the longer wheelbase will make it easier to achieve a good overall weight balance and handling. I target around 35% front/65% rear once suspension and tire pressures are tuned. Keeping the front light will not only allow you to corner well, but it makes it easier to work the front end and overcome the tire patch.

Looking at the bikes you listed, these all have pretty different geometries. The Scalpel has the steepest head tube angle, resulting in a shorter wheelbase for a bike with nearly the same reach. The Decree is more trail than XC, with a more slack head tube and greater suspension travel contributing to a relatively long wheelbase. I would even consider the medium Decree, as long as you can stand over it comfortably. If you can ride these, you might get a feel for what feels good.


Regarding the bars, 600mm is definitely narrow nowadays, considering the bikes you listed all come stock with 740-780mm wide bars. If you were to try the wider bars, I would shorten the stem 10mm for every 100mm of bar width difference. The idea is that this would maintain the distance from the shoulder socket to the hand while maintaining the rest of your body geometry. If you can get a bar with a bit more backsweep, that would help neutralize your wrists and relax your shoulders, too.

I don't know if that really helps much.

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Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador

Yes, this helps a lot. Thank you very much for your help. I probably should have asked earlier before I went to the Versailles and Potato Creek Xterras and I could have stopped by your shop.

The Felt was the last bike I was looking at, I included it only because I have several Felt dealers in the area. The headtube is slack compared to the others and it doesn't have a lot of fork offset which would lead me to think it's a bit slower steering.

I only recently started to look at the Scalpel. My biggest concern is having a selection of stems to fit on the giant headtube. It looks like a twitchy bike compared to the others and that's probably what I want. Did I mention the giant stem/headtube concern? :O

I'm still leaning toward the Pique though. I rode a demo last May and I really liked it.

That's cool that you were in the area! Hope you enjoyed the Indiana XTERRAs - they are pretty fun courses. If you're in the area again anytime, look me up.


Just something to look out for: Giant/Liv (and Canyon) have similar giant steerer tube issues, with their Overdrive and/or Overdrive 2 bikes (I can never remember where the cutoff is). These are 1 1/4" steerer tubes. Stem choices are still fairly limited, but Giant, Zipp, and Race Face are offering the bigger clamp diameter stems.

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Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador

out of curiosity, why is a Decree on your list of bikes for XTERRA racing? i would never want to ride a bike like that in a XC race...

Mainly because i have Felt dealers near me and i didn't see an xc option from felt in a 650b.

I also put it in there to get opinions such as yours to build my knowledge.

I'm also open to other suggestions, i haven't found a specialized or trek bike i like. If you have a suggestion for a small bike, please let me know.

ahhh the 27.5 is the real kick in the nuts with some of the bigger manufacturers i guess...i did not take that into consideration. the decree is definitely more of a trail bike though and would likely slow you down on many of the xterra courses. usually most of the full suspension 27.5 bikes are more ''trail'' oriented, for whatever reason. they don't seem to take shorter riders into account. even the women's epic is still a 29er. i know that their sponsored XC world cup riders use it...

http://www.teamusa.org/...hletes/Kate-Courtney

at 5'4 listed she appears to ride the 29er. quite successfully this year.

The Scalpel has been redesigned. It has a slacker head angle and they got rid of the OPI stem system. Definitely check one out.

I love my Scalpel and I have an older one, but I flipped the black spacer under the head tube (this doesn't come on the new gen Scalpel). It makes it 1/2 degree, also running wider bars and a 90 mm stem. It really tamed down the bikes nervous nature.
The only issue with them is the Lefty 2.0 needs frequent maintenance, a service every 100 hours of riding or so. They did fix the wave washer breakage issue with the new 2S spring. I just sent mine in to Mendon and he serviced it and increased the travel to 110 mm for 67 bucks plus the cost of me shipping it to him.

Just a question as to why you think it would slow me down. Because of the slower steering or maybe something else?

On the 29er thing...I raced one a few years ago; the problem with me is that I have gorilla arms and short legs which makes just about every 29er too tall for me. Think of a person sitting upright on a hybrid bike and that's me on a 29er. I tried setting the saddle back and adjusting the front end but that got me pushing forward on the pedals instead of pushing down and I couldn't produce enough power. Going to a longish stem (120) got me in the saddle position I liked but then I really had a difficult time pulling the front end over roots and rocks because the rear wheel was so far behind me. I know I'm whining now but if I'm going to spend 4K on a bike I want it to be one I want to ride.

A 29er I was interested in is the Niner RKT 9 RDO but that still has a stack of 580 and I'm looking for something in the 570 range that I can slam a -20 stem to get it low enough.