Mont-Tremblant 70.3 bike course needs to be fixed; last out and back too dangerous

Jun 27, 16 16:51

Post #1 of 105 (12719 views)

I was in the race on Sunday and saw some of the crash happen. The first four people were down when I came upon the accident near the turn around of the last out and back of the race. The riders coming after them did not see the crash until it was too late. Most of them slowed down but one guy swerved to go around the pile up and as he passed me, (I was going slowly up the hill, he was going down...two riders in front of me had jumped off their bikes to assist the 4 people who had crashed and were on the road or in the grass...bikes and equipment everywhere) he hit something and he must have have been catapulted forward because there was a loud crash and he must of gone flying forward and then he hit the ground. He hadn't slowed at all and crashed going over 30 miles an hour. AWFUL!!!!!!. Ironman has got to eliminate that part of the bike course. The road is too narrow and the return on the bike is too fast. What I suspect is that the young guys who didn't go till the last waves were trying to make up time and they were FLYING down that 6 mile return to town. Totally dangerous. If that last guy who crashed didn't die up there, he is totally lucky. One other note...I was nearly completely back to town before the first ambulances started to head up the hill...it would have been at least 30 minutes after the crash happened. IM should have had ambulances at the end of the out and back...they could have gotten to the wounded sooner.

I don't think the pavement was too hot or "oily". There may have been a bump there. Crash most likely caused by too many people flying down the hill in the aerobars. I think the road rolled a bit at that point and made it hard for the oncoming riders to even see the initial crash. Either way, IM please fix the course for next year MTB has miles of better roads! I read that there were 3200 people in that race...maybe too many for the course?

Re: Mont-Tremblant 70.3 bike course needs to be fixed; last out and back too dangerous [AWL07450] [ In reply to ]

Jun 27, 16 18:55

Post #2 of 105 (12467 views)

First off, I hope those involved in crashes last weekend are ok. However, I don't think there is anything inherently dangerous about that part of the course. Challenging, yes... you need to have your wits about you. If an athlete is smart, they'll have ridden or driven that piece of the course at least once before the race so they know how it rolls and turns. There's nothing 'too fast' about it -- I'm not a particularly aggressive rider, and I don't think I used my brakes much if at all in the twice I've raced on it. But bombing down around blind corners in the aerobars on a crowded course, in hot weather at the end of 90k, is maybe ill-advised. Sure, it's a race... but the first order of business is having control of your bike. Honestly, there are easier and safer places to make up time on that course.

Re: Mont-Tremblant 70.3 bike course needs to be fixed; last out and back too dangerous [AWL07450] [ In reply to ]

Jun 27, 16 19:32

Post #3 of 105 (12393 views)

AWL07450 wrote:

I was in the race on Sunday and saw some of the crash happen. The first four people were down when I came upon the accident near the turn around of the last out and back of the race. The riders coming after them did not see the crash until it was too late. Most of them slowed down but one guy swerved to go around the pile up and as he passed me, (I was going slowly up the hill, he was going down...two riders in front of me had jumped off their bikes to assist the 4 people who had crashed and were on the road or in the grass...bikes and equipment everywhere) he hit something and he must have have been catapulted forward because there was a loud crash and he must of gone flying forward and then he hit the ground. He hadn't slowed at all and crashed going over 30 miles an hour. AWFUL!!!!!!. Ironman has got to eliminate that part of the bike course. The road is too narrow and the return on the bike is too fast. What I suspect is that the young guys who didn't go till the last waves were trying to make up time and they were FLYING down that 6 mile return to town. Totally dangerous. If that last guy who crashed didn't die up there, he is totally lucky. One other note...I was nearly completely back to town before the first ambulances started to head up the hill...it would have been at least 30 minutes after the crash happened. IM should have had ambulances at the end of the out and back...they could have gotten to the wounded sooner.

I don't think the pavement was too hot or "oily". There may have been a bump there. Crash most likely caused by too many people flying down the hill in the aerobars. I think the road rolled a bit at that point and made it hard for the oncoming riders to even see the initial crash. Either way, IM please fix the course for next year MTB has miles of better roads! I read that there were 3200 people in that race...maybe too many for the course?

I think there is a tricky bump there, last year I made a mental note about it. Overall though the roads in MTB are excellent including the last out and back.

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Re: Mont-Tremblant 70.3 bike course needs to be fixed; last out and back too dangerous [AWL07450] [ In reply to ]

Jun 27, 16 19:46

Post #4 of 105 (12358 views)

AWL07450 wrote:

I read that there were 3200 people in that race...maybe too many for the course?

where did you "read" this?

Re: Mont-Tremblant 70.3 bike course needs to be fixed; last out and back too dangerous [AWL07450] [ In reply to ]

Jun 27, 16 19:56

Post #5 of 105 (12335 views)

AWL07450 wrote:

I was in the race on Sunday and saw some of the crash happen. The first four people were down when I came upon the accident near the turn around of the last out and back of the race. The riders coming after them did not see the crash until it was too late. Most of them slowed down but one guy swerved to go around the pile up and as he passed me, (I was going slowly up the hill, he was going down...two riders in front of me had jumped off their bikes to assist the 4 people who had crashed and were on the road or in the grass...bikes and equipment everywhere) he hit something and he must have have been catapulted forward because there was a loud crash and he must of gone flying forward and then he hit the ground. He hadn't slowed at all and crashed going over 30 miles an hour. AWFUL!!!!!!. Ironman has got to eliminate that part of the bike course. The road is too narrow and the return on the bike is too fast. What I suspect is that the young guys who didn't go till the last waves were trying to make up time and they were FLYING down that 6 mile return to town. Totally dangerous. If that last guy who crashed didn't die up there, he is totally lucky. One other note...I was nearly completely back to town before the first ambulances started to head up the hill...it would have been at least 30 minutes after the crash happened. IM should have had ambulances at the end of the out and back...they could have gotten to the wounded sooner.

I don't think the pavement was too hot or "oily". There may have been a bump there. Crash most likely caused by too many people flying down the hill in the aerobars. I think the road rolled a bit at that point and made it hard for the oncoming riders to even see the initial crash. Either way, IM please fix the course for next year MTB has miles of better roads! I read that there were 3200 people in that race...maybe too many for the course?

OK, at this point there have been 6x 70.3 races, and 4x IM races on that course. The have had the olympic tri 5x also and very very few crashes (overall) given the number of races, the number of racer-miles and the training sessions going on there. Sure it is a high speed downhill but they have them at at Nice, in Whistler, Lake Placid, South Africa, Oceanside, Wildflower, Mooseman, Penticton, etc etc etc. it's part of hilly courses. I am really sorry to hear about the crash and I hope the riders are OK, but I am certain that I echo the majority who don't want the course dumbed down because of a single crash. Taken to its ultimate extreme, since there is a risk of crashing everyone rides the 180K in place on their computrainers in T1. The sport inherently has some risk.

Re: Mont-Tremblant 70.3 bike course needs to be fixed; last out and back too dangerous [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jun 27, 16 20:09

Post #6 of 105 (12315 views)

devashish_paul wrote:

AWL07450 wrote:

I was in the race on Sunday and saw some of the crash happen. The first four people were down when I came upon the accident near the turn around of the last out and back of the race. The riders coming after them did not see the crash until it was too late. Most of them slowed down but one guy swerved to go around the pile up and as he passed me, (I was going slowly up the hill, he was going down...two riders in front of me had jumped off their bikes to assist the 4 people who had crashed and were on the road or in the grass...bikes and equipment everywhere) he hit something and he must have have been catapulted forward because there was a loud crash and he must of gone flying forward and then he hit the ground. He hadn't slowed at all and crashed going over 30 miles an hour. AWFUL!!!!!!. Ironman has got to eliminate that part of the bike course. The road is too narrow and the return on the bike is too fast. What I suspect is that the young guys who didn't go till the last waves were trying to make up time and they were FLYING down that 6 mile return to town. Totally dangerous. If that last guy who crashed didn't die up there, he is totally lucky. One other note...I was nearly completely back to town before the first ambulances started to head up the hill...it would have been at least 30 minutes after the crash happened. IM should have had ambulances at the end of the out and back...they could have gotten to the wounded sooner.

I don't think the pavement was too hot or "oily". There may have been a bump there. Crash most likely caused by too many people flying down the hill in the aerobars. I think the road rolled a bit at that point and made it hard for the oncoming riders to even see the initial crash. Either way, IM please fix the course for next year MTB has miles of better roads! I read that there were 3200 people in that race...maybe too many for the course?

OK, at this point there have been 6x 70.3 races, and 4x IM races on that course. The have had the olympic tri 5x also and very very few crashes (overall) given the number of races, the number of racer-miles and the training sessions going on there. Sure it is a high speed downhill but they have them at at Nice, in Whistler, Lake Placid, South Africa, Oceanside, Wildflower, Mooseman, Penticton, etc etc etc. it's part of hilly courses. I am really sorry to hear about the crash and I hope the riders are OK, but I am certain that I echo the majority who don't want the course dumbed down because of a single crash. Taken to its ultimate extreme, since there is a risk of crashing everyone rides the 180K in place on their computrainers in T1. The sport inherently has some risk.

Don't forget about the "dangerous" out & back at Louisville.

Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

Re: Mont-Tremblant 70.3 bike course needs to be fixed; last out and back too dangerous [walie] [ In reply to ]

Jun 27, 16 20:22

Post #7 of 105 (12291 views)

walie wrote:

AWL07450 wrote:

I read that there were 3200 people in that race...maybe too many for the course?

where did you "read" this?

Pretty sure if you look at the participants list pdf, there are over 3000.

That said, I honestly didn't find it too crowded. I've done all of the 70.3's there, and two of the IM's. I thought they were all fine, and easy to find your own space on the road.
Lac Superior - If you are inexperienced rider and decide to bomb down that hill in the aerobars, it can definitely be tricky around a couple of the bends. But riders have to be responsible, there are going to be fast parts on any course. I always make a point of going down that hill holding my base bar with a finger or two around each brake lever just in case, and keep a good grip. I'm fine with losing a few seconds and being safe.

Re: Mont-Tremblant 70.3 bike course needs to be fixed; last out and back too dangerous [japarker24] [ In reply to ]

Jun 27, 16 20:50

Post #8 of 105 (12236 views)

How many of the races you mentioned have high speed downhills with racers coming in the other direction, with blind curves? I am only familiar with Lake Placid, which of course has a scary hill but at least its wide open, with racers going in one direction.

Re: Mont-Tremblant 70.3 bike course needs to be fixed; last out and back too dangerous [AWL07450] [ In reply to ]

Jun 27, 16 21:12

Post #9 of 105 (12205 views)

AWL07450 wrote:

How many of the races you mentioned have high speed downhills with racers coming in the other direction, with blind curves? I am only familiar with Lake Placid, which of course has a scary hill but at least its wide open, with racers going in one direction.

It is worse in Lake Placid. It has traffic coming up the other way on Keene (I've done IMLP 11x and I've done IM Tremblant + 70.3 Tremblant total of 8x). I agree Tremblant on the surface seems worse, but if you calculate the odds of disaster LP with traffic coming up the other way CAN be a lot worse. At the end of the day, there is risk in every race we do. I had a really bad crash at IM Switzerland and left the course in an ambulance and today I can't even walk properly due to some damage from that (was fine for a while then a few things got worse). I really don't want them to change the IM Switzerland course cause I had a crash. Stuff happens out there. It's racing. It is part of what makes this sport exciting and fun. Don't dumb it down for the off crash. Crashes will happen from time to time. The Switchbacks in Nice or the single set of switchbacks at Zelle Am See are infinitely worse. In Nice if you make a small judgement error, you're going to fly 500-800 feet off a cliff.

Re: Mont-Tremblant 70.3 bike course needs to be fixed; last out and back too dangerous [walie] [ In reply to ]

Jun 28, 16 0:11

Post #10 of 105 (12131 views)

walie wrote:

AWL07450 wrote:

I read that there were 3200 people in that race...maybe too many for the course?

where did you "read" this?

2604 starters

http://www.ironman.com/triathlon/events/americas/ironman-70.3/mont-tremblant/results.aspx#axzz4CiTzC1fx

Re: Mont-Tremblant 70.3 bike course needs to be fixed; last out and back too dangerous [ptakeda] [ In reply to ]

Jun 28, 16 5:43

Post #11 of 105 (11914 views)

They had announced that number a few times over the weekend. Said 3200 in my race briefing and over 5000 for the weekend.

Last edited by: TOTRI: Jun 28, 16 5:54

Re: Mont-Tremblant 70.3 bike course needs to be fixed; last out and back too dangerous [TOTRI] [ In reply to ]

Jun 28, 16 5:50

Post #12 of 105 (11897 views)

TOTRI wrote:

They had announced that number a few times over the weekend. Said 3200 in my face briefing and over 5000 for the weekend.

That is the registered number between the 5150 and the 70.3. The actual number of starters and swim wave spacing is the only pertinent number for this conversation on course design and rider density.

Re: Mont-Tremblant 70.3 bike course needs to be fixed; last out and back too dangerous [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jun 28, 16 6:00

Post #13 of 105 (11865 views)

Was only commenting on the number that was announced. In my opinion the bike course is great and would not change it in any way. I also did not find it crowded at all.

Re: Mont-Tremblant 70.3 bike course needs to be fixed; last out and back too dangerous [AWL07450] [ In reply to ]

Jun 28, 16 7:20

Post #14 of 105 (11720 views)

I've done the Mont Tremblant IM in 2012 and 2013, and done the half a couple of times. The descent is fast and you have to be careful, but it is no less dangerous than a lot of other courses. I've been more worried coming down Yellow Lake in Penticton, or down Keene in Lake Placid. (although the descent to Keene is better after being re-paved a couple of years ago. The rough paths were pretty scary before that.)

Sometimes accidents just happen and there is little or noting we can reasonably do to prevent it. And sometimes it is partly our fault. A lot of us (certainly including me) have poor bike-handling skills, and we tend to out-ride our capabilities:
- too fast into corners
- too fast down a hill where we can't see around the bends
- not holding a straight line when being passed (or when going through an aid station)
- passing too close to a slower rider from a previous wave
This last example particularly irks me when there is a lot of congestion, and you get riders passing riders who are passing other riders so there are two or three people a breast for a couple of seconds. Then someone decides to pass on the right, or worse, tries to hammer by on the left but has about two inches of clearance to the bike he or she is passing.

When we register for a WTC race, we know there are going to be 2000-3000 people. Some parts of the course will be congested. We each have to expect it in our own race plan.

/off my band wagon for today :-)

run well, run happy
george

Re: Mont-Tremblant 70.3 bike course needs to be fixed; last out and back too dangerous [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jun 28, 16 7:42

Post #15 of 105 (11669 views)

"In Nice if you make a small judgement error, you're going to fly 500-800 feet off a cliff."

I'm an average cyclist and just signed up for Nice to get out of my comfort zone. This will do the trick.

The Tremblant course is a little scary in that section but I don't think it needs to be changed. If there are any "bumps" hopefully those will be fixed by August 21. I have not done IMLP but found the ass pucker factor in Louisville's out and back section to be much worse than Tremblant.

Re: Mont-Tremblant 70.3 bike course needs to be fixed; last out and back too dangerous [jpk_phx] [ In reply to ]

Jun 28, 16 7:55

Post #16 of 105 (11627 views)

jpk_phx wrote:

" If there are any "bumps" hopefully those will be fixed by August 21.

If not fixed, perhaps it could at least be marked.

Re: Mont-Tremblant 70.3 bike course needs to be fixed; last out and back too dangerous [jshoor] [ In reply to ]

Jun 28, 16 8:23

Post #17 of 105 (11568 views)

We are reading this and its already marked, it was hard to see.

Again that road is 5 years old and in better conditions than 90% of the roads most people ride on.

Point and feedback taken, thanks.

Re: Mont-Tremblant 70.3 bike course needs to be fixed; last out and back too dangerous [AWL07450] [ In reply to ]

Jun 28, 16 8:30

Post #18 of 105 (11552 views)

Not there, and I must confess that I've never been to see the Mont Tremblant course, but I know many that have raced it, including my wife.

Single rider crashes in triathlon I get. You come in to hot to a corner, and you go down . . . etc . . . It's these multi-rider pile-ups that are a bit of a head-scratcher for me.

How does this happen?

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Re: Mont-Tremblant 70.3 bike course needs to be fixed; last out and back too dangerous [AWL07450] [ In reply to ]

Jun 28, 16 8:45

Post #19 of 105 (11524 views)

I've ridden that course, and I heartily disagree. Taking the Chemin Duplessis out of the bike leg would totally change that course, and there is absolutely nothing inherently dangerous about it. Yes, coming back in you can get some serious speed, but there are tons of other courses where you can do that as well. There is a very long hill on the "stick" part of the IM Moo course early in the bike leg that usually has tons of riders on it since it's early in the day, and you can get some very serious speed there...probably faster than on the Chemin.

I'm sorry for the folks who crashed, and I hope they are ok. I also hope we don't start designing triathlon bike courses with the purpose of eliminating any sort of risk whatsoever. That would be horribly boring.

___________________________________________________
Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

Re: Mont-Tremblant 70.3 bike course needs to be fixed; last out and back too dangerous [Fleck] [ In reply to ]

Jun 28, 16 9:21

Post #20 of 105 (11477 views)

Fleck wrote:

Not there, and I must confess that I've never been to see the Mont Tremblant course, but I know many that have raced it, including my wife.

Single rider crashes in triathlon I get. You come in to hot to a corner, and you go down . . . etc . . . It's these multi-rider pile-ups that are a bit of a head-scratcher for me.

How does this happen?

Not that complicated....the corners are somewhat blind and fast, when someone is down in the middle of the road, the riders coming at them from behind are going too fast to have time to react.

Re: Mont-Tremblant 70.3 bike course needs to be fixed; last out and back too dangerous [spot] [ In reply to ]

Jun 28, 16 9:27

Post #21 of 105 (11464 views)

I'm sorry for the folks who crashed, and I hope they are ok. I also hope we don't start designing triathlon bike courses with the purpose of eliminating any sort of risk whatsoever. That would be horribly boring.

Yes, I would not like to see that happen. But we are kind of heading in that direction!

My heart sinks every time I stand at the mount line for the bike of a big 70.3 or Ironman race. Many people seem unable to get on their bikes in a proper way. I'm thinking, these people are about to head out on a sometimes challenging 90 or 180 kilometer bike leg, and they don't seem to know how to actually get on the bike!!!

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Last edited by: Fleck: Jun 28, 16 9:29

Re: Mont-Tremblant 70.3 bike course needs to be fixed; last out and back too dangerous [Fleck] [ In reply to ]

Jun 28, 16 9:46

Post #22 of 105 (11415 views)

Fleck wrote:

I'm sorry for the folks who crashed, and I hope they are ok. I also hope we don't start designing triathlon bike courses with the purpose of eliminating any sort of risk whatsoever. That would be horribly boring.

Yes, I would not like to see that happen. But we are kind of heading in that direction!

My heart sinks every time I stand at the mount line for the bike of a big 70.3 or Ironman race. Many people seem unable to get on their bikes in a proper way. I'm thinking, these people are about to head out on a sometimes challenging 90 or 180 kilometer bike leg, and they don't seem to know how to actually get on the bike!!!

Nor do some folks seem to be able to follow the simple rule of staying to the right unless passing. On the aforementioned hill at Moo, the number of folks that are incapable of maintaining a straight line, or staying right, is ridiculous. Athlete inattention, poor bike handling skills, and just plain stupidity are far more dangerous than the course.

___________________________________________________
Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

Re: Mont-Tremblant 70.3 bike course needs to be fixed; last out and back too dangerous [spot] [ In reply to ]

Jun 28, 16 9:57

Post #23 of 105 (11385 views)

There should be a written test regarding cycling etiquette that you have to pass before you can start a WTC event.

Re: Mont-Tremblant 70.3 bike course needs to be fixed; last out and back too dangerous [jpk_phx] [ In reply to ]

Jun 28, 16 10:03

Post #24 of 105 (11363 views)

and maybe categories like cycling? Get to Cat 1 or 2, and you are allowed in draft-legal races. Stay in Cat 5, and be restricted to tri-a-tris ?

i'm kidding. really, I am.

run well, run happy
george

Re: Mont-Tremblant 70.3 bike course needs to be fixed; last out and back too dangerous [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]

Jun 28, 16 11:11

Post #25 of 105 (11249 views)

Thomas Gerlach wrote:

I think there is a tricky bump there, last year I made a mental note about it. Overall though the roads in MTB are excellent including the last out and back.

I think I hit that tricky bump last year and crashed subsequently because of it. Broke a metacarpal and got a bunch of road rash but I got back on the bike and finished. Hit the same bump on the second lap but this time I was prepared. My mistake was descending in the aerobars and not knowing the course... Won't happen again (either)! The thing is that the entire course is perfect asphalt except for that damn bump on the Duplessis.

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