General = training threshold, V02max -- shorter, harder workouts. Specific (for Ironman) would be longer workouts with a lot of time in the "sweet spot" (at, and/or just above race intensity) and lower amounts of threshold/V02max work. Specificity includes the type of work (swim, bike, run), the intensity and the duration.

Sorry, more than one sentence.

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Note to self: increase training load.

Well, you do burn what you eat, and Maffetone isn't the only one to believe that training longer and slower is better than training shorter and faster. The notion, though, you can/should use diet and training intensity to specifically "dial up" fat oxidation so as to improve performance is certainly incorrect. Rather, you should train in such a manner so as to optimize performance (which requires eating a sufficient amount of carbohydrates), and the increase in fat oxidation follows from that...

Best post in this thread so far.

i think it's worth noting a couple of things. first, did you not find that a run where you start slow, gradually building to just below LT, and staying there for the duration of the run, was a pretty easy run? the typical kenyan 5k/10/half-mary runner is typically running 2 and usually 3 times a day, 130 to 160 miles a week, and as you're building to, and maintaining, that mileage, even a "kenyan" can't have many of his runs be much harder than that.

the problem most triathletes have is that they just can't or won't or don't know how to run more than 10 or 15 miles a week. now, maybe that's a function of available time. but my experience is that most of the time invested in a run or a ride is in the time just before and after the workout. the getting ready, the getting back from. the incremental time it takes to run 9 miles instead of 5 miles is not that impactful on my schedule.

how do you get a triathlete from 5 mile runs to 9 mile runs? or from 9 to 15? esp if it's a 45 year old triathlete? i think there's fairly good anecdotal evidence, from kenyans and moroccans, to the best american runners over recent history, that quantity at below LT is a critical component. steve scott is not only the second fastest, but the most durable, u.s. miler in history, and he was routinely an 85 and 95 a week runner (a lot for a miler).

training just below LT, as easy is that may seem to certain runners, still might not be easy enough if you're trying to go from a 10m/wk runner to a 30m/wk runner. especially when we're talking about those who're carrying an extra 15 pounds, and who, unlike kenyan runners, must apportion energy to non-athletic activities.

in general, i think kenyan training principles fit elegantly inside the paradigm of base-building pursuant to further future intensity.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

What happened?

It's Duathlon.

Their was a brief time back about 15+ or so years ago when Duathlon looked like it was going to break-out - this was when Kenny Souza was at his peak. Zofingen was a significant race on the calendar. It was a big show down between Souza and the other Duathlon specialists, and some of the very best long distance triathletes as well( who at the time where also the best short course triathletes).

However, Duathlon has remained a poor second cousin to Triathlon and it never really did break out.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

quick example... ironman training.

you start with anaerobic/neuromuscular/VO2 focus and only 18 hours of training a week and you progress towards LOTS of zn2 & 3 riding and running and 35 hours a week.

that's general to specific.

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

My one comment about the current generation of IM athletes, and I may have no idea of what I am talking about, but I will say it any way, is that they race at the IM distance too much. I know that the race schedule and the money structure almost forces them to do this. And I know that their will be people who will say, "well look at Hillary Biscay, or Joe Bonness or Bella Comerford". They are exceptions cause I think they are recovery freaks! I figure, an athlete has one and maye two, at the absolute most, really good IM races in them per year. The better part of the year should be spent racing shorter distances - Olympic and HalfIM's. Look at world class marathon runners - they rarely run more than two marathons/year. Typically it's one in the spring and one in the fall. The rest of the year they race 5K up to 1/2 Marathon.

yes yes yes yes yes yes... go look at my sched for the year. ;-)

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

ARGH!!!!!!!!


hehehe :)

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

Too bad too. Some of my best workouts have been duathlon races where you GO from the start to the finish of those races. They are certainly a different animal to their triathlon cousin. :)

Oh c'mon... we all know Zone 3 is the "junk zone".
;-)

Who uses zones anyways? You been reading Friel?

"is that most of the time invested in a run or a ride is in the time just before and after the workout. the getting ready, the getting back from."

So you're saying a lot of triathletes invest a lot in the SOCIAL aspect of the sport...sometimes to the detriment of getting faster? ;-)

"However, Duathlon has remained a poor second cousin to Triathlon and it never really did break out."

this is off-topic, but we're about to launch a big slowtwitch push to get ready for duathlon nationals in richmond, virginia in late april. this, because du worlds are in north carolina later in the year (september?) and how often do we get du worlds in the united states?

also i think having du nats in late april would be a nice carrot for those who can get in bike/run shape by then, but whose swimming might not yet be ready for prime time.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

or coggan... SST baby. :-)

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

Who's coggan?

I called 'em "levels" and not "zones" for a reason. ;-)

Why not GO from start to finish in a triathlon?

OK, I get it now. So the old Bompa methodology, etc, had the VO2 max and higher level intensity stuff at the end because most of the Olympic sports the methodology was designed for were middle distance or faster, i.e. the races themselves were performed at VO2 max or higher.

And some people carried this same training methodology over to Ironman training without accounting for the fact that Ironman is raced at 60-70% VO2, thus were actually deviating from the specificity of intensity *and* volume.

That makes intuitive sense.

I'm not sure I buy everything, but the logic is attractive.

What happened to Zofi? Well, it used to be in Late May/early June. And there used to be a lot fewer IM races (thus less prize $). And Zofi used to have a $50 or $100 purse (They even had a male-female time handicap with a big bonus for the first across the line, well before Lifetime ever had it). Credit Suisse was a big big sponsor... Those factors made it appealing to the triathletes aiming for Kona. Now, its ~6 weeks out from Kona and the popular belief is that its not possible to do well in Kona after Zofingen. Seems somewhat reasonable since the steep hills of Zofi create a ton of eccentric loading. I think John McGovern has done both in the same year; I wonder what his take is?

I think another reason is the culture. The Swiss are more frugal than Americans. There's less media hype & marketing hoopla there. At the same time, the media & marketing here has created a lot of mass appeal for IM, 70.3, etc. Sure, they have the EuroSport channel with lots of exposure & appeal for cycling & athletics... But its not the same as the "you'd better sign up now before it sells out, so you can brag forever, etc" exposure/appeal {"street cred"?} that IM racing gets here.

I've done it something like 8 1/3 times. I love that its less hyped and less crowded than the m-dot races. To me, its not the hype that makes something special. I love the volunteers there, the steep hills on the bike, and experiencing the bliss (and pain) of running through those forests. That is what's cool about our sport--lots of different types of races for everyone.

Ok, sorry to hijack the thread... back to your regularly scheduled programming...

I have found it's just a different race for some reason. Being able to see exactly where everyone is at the start certainly helps me to push it a lot more than I usually would in a tri. Plus, I don't want to expend so much energy during the swim (as a weaker swimmer). I have found the du's just have a different feel to them. It's a go and hang on till you die kind of race. For me, the tri's don't have that feeling until i get to the run portion.
M~

You just need to "tri" a little harder.

ba-dump ching!

If I was in San Diego or Florida or Kona and I was in my 20s I'd be doing what Dan writes. :) Are there young pros following this "old school" protocol (including racing at all distances and only doing 1 or 2 IMs per year)? How are they progressing?

I'd like to point out that Lydiard IS NOT the father of "most modern coaching theory". We know of Lydiard for one very important reason. He spoke english. we speak english. Most periodization and "modern coaching theory" stems from european or soviet research. Lydiard didn't reinvent the wheel or come up with any fabluls new way to train. He simply was able to communicate a method to people of like speaking languages. There are just as many other "pioneers" out there that we give little or no credit from us simply because they aren't from a culture or country we closely associate with. I think one thing that holds a lot of people back from really understanding training is this whole "lydiard vs. Daniels vs. coe vs your mom" none of those people invented anything new and never claimed to. let's also not look at the best runners from every coach we advocate (because let's be honest here, Coe would most likely have fluroushed under any coach he trusted as would have snell, they were just that talanted) but the overall performance of their athletes as a whole.

"Are there young pros following this "old school" protocol (including racing at all distances and only doing 1 or 2 IMs per year)?"

there were sort of two "old schools." in 1991 or thereabouts WTC started the "ironman world series." it was based on how you did in 5 ironman races. erin baker won it, my ex wife won it, scott tinley, ray browning each won it. obviously, that's a lot of IM racing. it was not uncommon to race 5, 6 or 7 ultras a year, when you consider that nice and zofingen were on a lot of race schedules.

nowadays, i think most of us understand the hazards involved in that sort of schedule. i'm not saying it can't be done, but it takes a special person, and someone who understands acutely the need for rest, and periodization, and who's willing to do a lot of these races just on base only.

back then, there were very few half-IMs, at least as an event that paid for a pro to attend. so, if you were an IM specialist, and you earned your living that way, it was a sparse landscape if you only wanted to do 1 or 2 IMs a year. the only half-IMs out there that a pro might consider were WF and St. Croix, and you could only do one or the other. the lucky ones were welchie, and skid and grip and dave, who could still get it on in a 2hr race.

i remember paula doing something like 3 ironmans over 4 or 5 weekends: i think it was japan, roth, and something else. strongman maybe, i don't remember, but it was a brutal schedule. and she won them all. vabrousek, biscay, comerford, would've been right at home in the "old school."

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

While I will admit the phrase "most modern coaching theory" is a bit too sweeping on my part Lydiard did not read soviet literature to determine how to coach his runners. He experimented with his own training. He tried a dozen approaches to running. When he found that base building was most effective, he experimented with different volumes, different schedules, all in an effort to find out what worked. He did this on himself, running as much as 200 miles in a week to see what was best (that level, fortunately was not). He made himself a national marathon champion in the process.

Coe would be the first person to tell you that he would not have flourished under "any coach he trusted". He would be the first to tell you that the unique approach of his father tailored specifically to suit him, was what made him a champion. Coe did not flourish under his father merely because he trusted him. That was necessary no doubt but not sufficient by any means. He flourished because his father found just the right program to work for him. Coe has said as much in interviews.

Nor is there any evidence that Snell would have flourished under any coach he trusted. Look at how much credit he himself gives to Lydiard's training. You give way too much credit to talent.