Cut your bike workout 20 minutes short and tack on a short run to it. You'll get more overall race day fitness benefit for a 5 minute impact on your family schedule.

If anything as an age group time limited triathlete, running should be the last sport to go. it is the most time effective and convient...I see guys spending 2 hours (door to door, drive, change shower, swim, shower, drive home) for a 50 min swim. You tell me if you get more out of 2 hour door to door for a swim session, or a 50 min run+10 min shower+change+60 min extra family time.

I'm not saying swim and bike are unimportant, but run fitness is something that you cannot fake and more importantly it is the most time effective sport for fitness gained vs time expended. Anyone who tells me that they are a triathlete and don't have enough time for running is simply not putting enough priority to manufacture time to get the incremental running in. I'd argue swim and bike time should go first before run time, cause if you have run fitness, you can hop back into bike and swim and pile it on quickly when you have more time...not the case for running.

Dev

I just remember reading at the end of Moore's biography on Bill Bowerman how much he hated the "east coast mentality" to running because of its emphasis on indoor track.

I, too, hated that. It was interesting how season after season I'd see people run slower in outdoor than they did in indoor, and I would beat them by a wider margin than I did in XC. There were exceptions, of course, and I think that that's a testament to the fact that you can do too much speed or you can do the right amount.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

I like to describe it best by showing the opposite: How much run fitness translates to bike fitness. When I started triathlons about 4 years ago, I was able to run 5K in 16:00. I got on road bike for the first time in a decade and rode it a flat 6 miles and was exhausted when I finished. I averaged 14 mph. After a year of bike training I did IMoo and average 16.7 mph in wind and rain.

So you can take a guess as to how much I think one translates to the next. ; ^ )

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

I realize that the best way to get better at running is to run, but for most of us, running is the thing we do after swimming and biking first.

Perhaps this is why when you look at the splits from most big triathlons and you keep looking at them year after year and looking at them with a bit of an eye, this is what you see: Mediocre to OK swim splits. Decent to very good bike splits. And then for the most part, lousy run splits. This is why, I have said on this forum many, many times - if an athlete is really serious about improving their triathlon performance, the run is where to do it. Why? - No one is running that well! Even small percentages in running improvement, yield BIG improvements in both place and time performance in triathlon.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

True, but for a different purpose. Daniels advocates reps to improve economy (mechanics, so more of muscle memory?). I don't believe that's what Marky suggests in his post.

You wrote:

lighter runners with a well developed base do have to deal with this, because their tissues and physiologies are up to the high mileage challenge -- two and three runs a day are within their capabilities. accordingly, much running performed by an 80-mile a week middle distance runner, or a 130 mile a week long distance runner, is performed slowly.

It looks to me that the best runners never run slow.

The total mileage of Waitz is quite interesting. She found 160 km to be “perfect” for her. A number of top class athletes have found themselves averaging around 160 km. at their top with great success. Many have tried more, without making it. For example, a runner like Viren did 7500 km in 1972 when he won double 5/10000 m. in Munich. Around the same average had Waitz, Kristiansen and many of the Kenyans.

It seems like (also based on studies from the Russians, collected from world class long distance runners training logs) that 160 km/week rawaverage (that means including the summer and rest period ! = in the winter over 200 km. at times, down to maybe 140-150 in the summer ) is the minumum average for really running at your best. And – that AT training is something we find – together with Vo2 max sessions, in almost all of these athletes training. Either in pure AT sessions or fast distance runs on “easy” days. http://www.mariusbakken.com/...nt=11&groupid=22


Constantly focusing on miles per week can be a little bit confusing. The good runners in the world have a jogging speed of 6 minutes per miles or faster, women will run 6.20 or faster. Their average miles per week are around 100. So they cover 100 miles in 600 minutes, or in other words 10 hours.


This is about Grete Waitz training
Another thing to be aware of is the speed on the distance runs. Per Halle, one of my close helpers, was at his best at this time (13.27 5000 m. in 74), and on training camps and even before Championships, Waitz was known for her extremely steady pace on the “easy” days. She ran with the men, at a pace from 3.30-4.00 on most of them.
This would correlate to sub AT training. AT for Waitz at this time would be around 3.25, if you compare her to Ingrid Kristiansen and her lab tests when she was at Waitz level. This is very interesting. Kaggestad was clear to point this out, when I discussed training with him : both Grete Waitz and Ingrid Kristiansen almost never saw the 4.number/km when they ran “easy”.
They built endurance through sub AT running – much like what we see in todays Kenyans and Maroccons. This is combined with fast Vo2 max sessions, like we see in the training of Waitz. Kaggestad also explained how Watiz from the fall of 82, when training specifically for the marathon in the World Champs. in 83 (where she won), almost never trained on the track anymore.
http://www.mariusbakken.com/...nt=11&groupid=22


The VO2 max on top athletes are the same now as in the 30, 40, 50 etc. The biggest change in endurance training has been a movement over from long and slow to more intervals and sub AT. This is from Olympiatoppen, a Norwegian center for sport. Sorry it is in Norwegian byt a translate program can help.
VO2-maks er mål på utøverens evne til å ta opp og forbruke oksygen per tidsenhet (Basset & Howley, 2000). VO2-maks er blitt brukt som en indikator på utholdenhetsnivået i flere tiår (Brooks et al., 1996). Studier viser at internasjonale utholdenhetsutøvere i 30-, 40- og 50-årene hadde et VO2-maks som var fullt på høyde med dagens topputøvere (Robertson et al., 1937; Åstrand, 1992). Prestasjonsfremgangen i utholdenhetsidrettene de siste 50 årene må derfor også tilskrives andre faktorer enn økt VO2maks. For at utøveren skal nå et høyest mulig prestasjonsnivå må utøveren ikke ensidig fokusere på å utvikle VO2-maks. Utøveren bør også gjennomføre trening som har til hensikt å forbedre utnyttingsgraden og arbeidsøkonomien i konkurranseøvelsen (Åstrand et al., 2003).

I store grupper med varierende prestasjonsnivå har det vist seg å være en god sammenheng mellom VO2-maks verdier og prestasjonen i utholdenhetsidretter (Saltin, et.al, 1967, Costil, et.al, 1973; Sjødin & Svedenhag, 1985). Sammenhengen er derimot svak når man sammenlikner homogene utøvergrupper (Sjødin & Svedenhag, 1985; Ingjer, 1992). Det innebærer at høy VO2-maks er en forutsetning for å oppnå gode prestasjoner I utholdenhetsidretter, men høy VO2-maks er ikke nødvendigvis avgjørende for suksess eller ikke (Conley & Krahenbuhl, 1980).
http://www.olympiatoppen.no/...aktorer/page593.html


Here is an illustration of Moroccan training (use the link to see an example).

According to Kada, El Guerrouj does these AE session at a pace of 2.50 – 3.10/km, where he starts a bit slower and picks it up. This pace is kept for 30-45 minutes. For him, that means right under his lactic treshold, thus LT work. The Maroccon system is based on the British one, developed by Peter Coe. In his books and practical training Coe emphasizes this kind of LT work. This was one of the things that made Seb Coe such an exceptional middle distance runner, with a range from the 800 up to 5km road races. So as you can see, there is a red line in much of the training here. Both the dominating Kenyans and Maroccons use LT work as a GREAT part of their training. And so did the British runners when they were great back in the 80s. (For the information of the illustration : "Power" means "10x300 m. hill/200-300 multi-jumps" and "Race pace" is "Fartlek 6/5/4/3/2/1" or "track session "1600/1200/800/600/400 with rec. starting at 1 min reducing to 30 sec.")

http://www.mariusbakken.com/...nt=13&groupid=16

Just my 2 CitiBank shares

Unfortunately, Fleck had to grow up with the Toronto Maple Leafs...at least you had respectable franchises in your neck of the woods like the Flyers, Eagles, Phillies...question for the Philly types...do you guys love Ron Jaworski or do you hate him as much as McNabb....or am I dating myself talking about Jaws from Superbowl XV...and the three picks by Rod Martin (the Superbowl and I are the same age....) ? At least you guys had Mike Schmidt and Steve Carleton for the 1980 world series win....

....OK back to the regular programming

running is the thing we do after swimming and biking first.[/reply]
Which leads me to question why so many people short change the run. It's the most physically demanding event, you start it glycogen depleted and fatigued. Then people wonder why they can't run with in 15 minutes of their stand alone run half marathon.
For most people getting 5 min faster on the run is more practical then getting 5 min faster on the bike. Of course getting faster biking is "easier"

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

I started a thread here a while ago after a summer bike ride. I was relatively out of shape, but I remember jumping on the bike and being able to hammer pretty hard for about 90 minutes. I remember thinking that had that been a run and I was in similar run shape, 30 minutes at a moderate heart rate when have been all that would be reasonable for me to do without suffering major consequences the following day.

I find that that is the sticking point for a lot of triathletes who come into running last. They just can't imagine going as easy as most runners need to go, at least relative to ability. When I'm in peak shape, I can cruise at a good clip for 2 hours...."top in of aerobic zone" if you will. But again, a similar workout on the bike when I'm in bike shape is 6 hours 60-90 minutes worth of fairly intense riding. A lot of triathletes can handle the 6 hour workout on the bike and can't get themselves in the mindset of doing the 30 minute conversational run.

Fast forward 4-6 years of consistent running and, yes, more intensity most of the year is reasonable.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Well, I was very young, but this is what I remember:

Jaws - people hated him
Schmidt - loved
Carlton - loved
Earving - loved

Hated might be too strong of a word, as it is for McNabb. But yes, people were very critical of Jaws as they are of McNabb, but they aren't that way about every athlete. I think you pretty much have to be a near flawless superstar to get respect. See above. ; ^ )

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Interesting about the 160k per week. I was talking with ~1980 Boston Marathon winner Jacqueline Gareau this weekend at an XC ski race. That's her sport now, but she still runs 5-7 times per week. She said when she was winning marathons in the era of Waitz and Joan Benoit, her peak mileage was always the magical 100mile mark and only for so many weeks...any more and she was pushing her limits.

By the way, she is still winning....just won the race this weekend now in her 50's. It was minus 22C with 30 kph wind and she was still out there slugging it out with her face covered with duct tape to avoid frostbite on day when most people dropped out or went for the shorter races than the longer 36K event.

http://www.skidefondmont-tremblant.com/...ac/Resultats2009.xls

Dev

There were exceptions, of course, and I think that that's a testament to the fact that you can do too much speed or you can do the right amount.

That's right. In hind-sight. I was lucky. I trained with a great group (many provincial and nationally ranked runners) and we had as a coach one of the best distance running coaches in Canada at the time. Much of what he taught me and what he did remains basic and fundamental today - 30 years later. There really is nothing new or revolutionary.

Cross country really was the "base" season. We raced xc with little structured interval training - it revolved around long tempo runs and fartlek and hill repeats - this still involved some pretty fast running at times( sub 5:00 min/mile stuff). Back before I even knew what a tempo run was, he had us doing this hilly loop that took about 20 minutes to run - we would do this at about 5:30min/mile+- pace - sometimes a bit faster. So, hard, but not all out - comfortable race pace he liked to call it.

More traditional structured interval type of training really did not start until we were on the indoor track in January.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Sorry for leaving out Dr. J...growing up in Montreal, all we seemed to get was our fill of the Celtics vs Lakers/Bird vs Magic....

This thread has remarkably stayed on topic so I figured I'd do something to divert the discussion without bringing up powercranks (darn...I just did it)...

Dev

MarkyV, I apologize if I just plained missed this, but I don't believe I've seen a rationale for your training approach in this thread.

I get the specific part. No explanations necessary. I'm curious as to what your rationale is to the types of workouts you prescribe in the earlier phases. Is it getting them fast first, and then carrying that speed long? If so, do you do the same for sprint triathletes? Or do you have them go long first and then fast?

And if thats the case, is it 18 hours a week for both, but its only called long for the short course guys because their training gets cut down later, while the long course guys increase their training later?

Sorry to sound ignorant. I don't know what's in your head (so I won't be writing your biography any time soon ; ^ ).

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

That rivalry was so great that the year that the Sixers finaly knocked out teh Celtics.....in Madison Square Garden....the Celtice fans started cheering the Sixers by chanting for them "Beat L.A! Beat L.A!"

I was a big Dr. J fan as a kid, but looking back and watching sports today, I don't know that we've ever had anything as amazing as the Bird vs Magic rivalry. They saw each other in the finals in college, and then time and time again in the pros....always on the same team.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

I wouldn't simplify it in quite that manner, but I'm sure that might work for some people. My process, for what it's worth...

1. consider what I've been doing the last several years
2. consider what I've been doing the last several months
3. identify goal races considering distance, priority and timing (this may be current season and/or consider several seasons forward and may be performance-based or sustainability-based or some combination thereof)
4. identify greatest limiters to performance based on 1-3
5. create and execute a training plan to address limiters that enhances training response and minimizes chances for injury

Five steps can apply to anyone, so that's pretty simple. Executing #5 properly is the tricky part.

(Note that I haven't read this whole thread, so I may be repeating people or contradicting others that don't want to be contradicted. Don't really have time to read the whole thing, as interesting as it might be, because it likely won't change my approach and doesn't count as billable work. Ha!)

EDIT: To address the debate of the original post-- whether #5 consists of fast-->long or long-->fast depends on #'s 1-4. I'm not sure there's one approach that works for everybody or even one person all the time. Hence the endless debates.

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__________________________
http://www.aliciaparr.com/blog
http://www.performentor.com

Yes, I too am on Facebook. And LinkedIn. And Twitter. Which begs the question - do I exist in the physical world? Do I?

I feel like most of you know who Jack Daniels is. I feel like his running program focuses on running economy through short fast sessions early on and gradually approaches a more specific marathon speed as you get close to the race.

Jack Daniels Marathon Program
Easy stuff for a little bit just to build a base and help out with those connective tissues so you dont get injured (this time is short) not the months of slow training that have always been done.

Then it goes into Intervals as the primary focus (like 5k pace)
Then gets into all threshold work (1/2 marathon pace)
Then it gets into longer and longer segments at Threshold and Marathon pace right before you do the marathon

I feel like this is a prime example of going fast early on and slower later. This for most would be considered 18 weeks of speed

thanks for posting that.. I've been too cheap to spring for the 4th edition since I have the 1st ed..

Mark's 'patience phase' week was 27 hours, or about four times what my peak in-season build week is. The run component alone, 90km, is about what I did as an ultrarunner in the off season.

I tried the Allen system one winter, but my MAP-test speed dropped steadily throughout, from 8:30 miles at 140 HR down to 9:45 after 3 months. That is almost certainly because the volume I ran was simply too low to give any kind of training effect.

On the other hand, "do more faster" was my basic training protocol for the years 1975-1983, and it led to stagnation after 4 years. In 1984 I added a lot more volume at low intensity during the off-season, went from a 3:10 to a 2:45 marathon.

Joe Henderson, who popularized the term LSD in running when he wrote a 64-page book in 1969 (read it here: http://www.joehenderson.com/longslowdistance/), wrote the following in 2003 in an updated introduction. His writings have helped guide me through 30+ years of running and 25+ years of triathlon so I wanted to post his words on the topic.

In this way LSD was less a training system than a RECOVERY system. We raced better by staying healthier and happier, not by training harder. The booklet also never advised taking LSD in pure form -- nothing but long and slow. All six of us ran much faster sometimes, if only in frequent short races. The fast running, taken in small amounts, made LSD work. Without the purest form of speed, an all-out race as short as a mile on the track, we would indeed have devolved into one-slow-gear runners.

Finally the booklet never meant to suggest taking its title literally -- running as long as possible at the slowest possible pace. Only two of the runners featured here topped 100 miles a week habitually. They happened to be the fastest two, 1968 Boston Marathon winner Amby Burfoot and Bob Deines, Olympic Trials Marathon fourth-placer that same year. The other four runners averaged what would now be fairly modest distances of 50 to 80 miles a week. We ran what would now be a relatively brisk pace of seven to eight minutes a mile.

One good test for the value of any theory, practice or product is how long it lasts. If it doesn't work well, it vanishes. If worthwhile, it endures. The message in the LSD booklet must have had some value. Many of us still run this way, no matter what we choose to call it.

I didn't understand the car analogy in the previous post but this cleared it up (and then some). Thanks.

What specific benefits would an athlete gain for long course training/racing?

"It looks to me that the best runners never run slow."

i assure you, you'll find plenty of evidence indicating this is not the case. regardless of the capacity of the athlete, and if you are going to make speed at lactate threshold the arbiter of fitness (which is fine), the best way to improve lactate threshold is off volume first, and lactate threshold training after a decent base has been established. if you commence a running program with lactate threshold workouts, you won't last two weeks.

i'm happy to concede that tempo runs at AT threshold (as defined by lactate accumulation of 4.x mM), is an integral part of training. but no runner does all his runs at this pace, and no runner excludes this training from his regimen. runners routinely run below and above this pace. a tempo run at 85% of your max HR has been a stable of runners since time immemorial. there is no newsflash here.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I agree that we (me included ;-) have no absolute answer to what is correct when it comes to training.
During my xc-skiing days in Norway I did my share of long and slow, so I have in depth knowledge about that approach. You can get quite good with long and slow. We never had a heart rate over 150 except on intervals. I ran a 1.20 half marathon as a 16 year old with no special running training or any tapering at all so long and slow did not make me bad (I know 1.20 is not fast, but for a person that does not focus on running it is not to bad).

But I think that a sub AT running and skiing could have given me better results. I can also see that xc-skiers have changed their approach to more intervals and sub-AT.

This is why Kenyans run fast

How the Young Kenyan Athletes are Training
Iten Athletics training camp, December 1998
Training program for St. Patrick High School, Kenya – the “birthplace” of runners such as Charles & Kipkoech Cheruiyot, Peter Rono, Matthew Birir, Helen Kimaiyo, Wilson Kipketer, Japhet Kimutai, Sally Barsosio, Rose Cheruiyot, Joseph Tengelei, Benson Koech, David Kiptoo, Lydia Cheromei and Julius Chelule. (age 14-18 year)
(complied by Joseph Ngure and Brother Colm O’Connell)

Mon :
am (men) 8-9 km and stretching
am (women) 6-7 km and stretching
pm (men) Long run 45-60 minutes (12-14 km)+excercises
pm (women) Long run 45-60 minutes (10-12 km)+exercises


Tue :

am (men) 8 km 27-30 minutes
am (women) 6 km 25 minutes
pm (men/women) 10 munutes w/up,Fartlek for 60-75 minutes – 2 minutes hard/3 minutes easy or 3 minutes hard, 2 minutes easy+exercises


Wed :

am (men) 9 km pace endurance 60 % and flexibility
am (women) 7 km pace endurance 60 % and flexibility
pm (men/women) Circuit training 4x2 min each, 3x2 min each. Then 100 meteres striding plus long strides for 45 minutes


Thu :

am (men/women) Long slow 60 minutes over mixed terrain
pm (men/women) 15 min. runs. Then diagonal drills for 30-35 minutes, 10 minutes dynamics


Fri :

am (men) 8 km easy 30 %
am (women) 6 km easy 30 % plus dynamics
pm (men/women) Hill reps. 120-200 meters x 14 at 60 % pace.


Sat :

am (men/women) striding for 40 minutes over 100-120 metres
pm (men/women) Competition or speed play over 1-1 mins. or 500 meters


Sun :

am (men) easy 8 km
am (women) easy 6 km
pm (men/women) active rest

Comment by Marius : St. Patrick High School is located about 35 minutes drive from Eldoret (2150 meters altitude) and is around 2500 meters above sea level. It is very hilly and all training is done on soft red cinder. If you look at the training program, from the experience I have had when visiting Iten training camp - and the talks Frank Evertsen has had with O’Colm (O’Colm has also visited Frank in Norway) - all long runs, except the one labeled “easy 30 %” and “the long slow run in terrain”, is AT running. Even for these very young ones.

Twice a week before the real racing season starts (spring) the athletes go down to around 1000 meters (in the Valley only 20 minutes drive) to do speed work. So “high-low” training has hit Kenya as well :-)

It is also interesting that the home of 800 meter runners like Wilson Kipketer and Kimutai emphasizes speed work so much. Lots of drills and striding - even as main workouts. That might be one of the reasons why Kenyas top 800 meter runners come from St.Patrick. If you look at the program, they run 13 sessions and one “active rest” at very young age – and at high speed. The “fartlek” on Tuesday I observed in 1999 and it was VO2 max training. So in one week, they have 2 Vo2 max sessions (Tuesday and Saturday) 2-3 speed sessions (Wednesday and Thursday, plus partly Saturday morning) and one speed endurance session (hill reps on Friday). This comes in addition to the 4 AT sessions/week (the “long runs”) and two easy runs (am Friday and am Thursday......even though I would suggest that this last one does not go very easy at the end :-) )....so there you have it......the Kenyan training at a young age. AT training, speed and Vo2 max sessions....and competitions year around almost....try it on 14 year old Norwegians or Americans and let them enjoy.......at 2500 meters altitude :-)

For the spring training in Iten and more info on St.Patrick High School : look at the web page http://www.iatfcc.org/Kenyan.html . This page adds some good stuff to the program I have shown you here (that I got down in Kenya from a friend). On the page you can also see the all time best list for former St. Patrick High School students in the 800 meters (as of 1996 – later Kimutai has run 1.42s and Kipketer 1.41low :-) ) :
http://www.mariusbakken.com/...nt=13&groupid=17

Actually, the opposite is true. TSS is, for all practical purposes, a measure simply of glycogen usage. For example, A four hour "base ride" (call it 60% of LT, which is a reasonable definition for a solid base ride) will have a much higher TSS score than a {1 hour easy warmup with a few interval, 40km TT @ LT, easy 30 min cooldown} workout will.

Paulo discussed this at length on his blog, which I doubt you read but I think you ought to and that you'd enjoy, in his articles on the "Death of TSS." -- http://thetriathlonbook.blogspot.com/...07/death-of-tss.html

It is precisely because TSS does NOT put a high premium on intensity that it is a less valuable metric than it ought to be. TSS is an accurate metric for people that engage in a lot of base mileage. It is a relatively poor metric for folks whose training is predicated around intervals and intensity.

EDIT: (from Paulo's article)...

Figure 2 shows a comparison between P_TRIMP and TSS, using as input the above mentioned approximation for the Power vs Duration curve. Therefore, what is shown are the curves for the maximum TRUMP and TSS possible for a given duration.



It is clear from the comparison that TSS overestimates the training load for increasing durations. This somewhat agrees with the sentiment by those that use TSS to quantify training load that it puts an excessive weight in duration vs intensity.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Codec,

The way i see benefits from this type of training fall into a few categories. The first (and arguably the more important) is neuromuscular efficiency. That being that all the appropriate muscle/tendon units are activating and receiving messages from the corresponding neurons optimally. This does several things actually. 1. it improves one's capacity for work, so you can do more with less risk of damaging the body, 2. you hopefully will become more efficient (use less energy at the same relative speed and produce more power with less energy (important for cycling and runnin) and 3. you can increase your resistance to injury through general strength work.

Now, I am not a huge weight or plyos guy. My position after seeing the lab and seeing this implemented (I know for example the Ryan Hall uses some sort of this type of training year round) is essentially to do the least amount possible to get the maximum gains. Unfortunatley, for many of us (myself included here) that means building a strength base (lifting and strength work requires base just like endurance training) from which to build off of more explosive stuff. You would probably see benefit from a twice weekly session (of about 15-20min) where you did 2 exercises (heavy squats (4 sets of 6) and jump squats (2 sets of 10-15)) Provided your form is correct and you go for maximum explosion during the jump squats. Short (60-80m) all out gradual uphill sprints work well for explosiveness too. the real key in sessions like this is to make sure you take FULL recovery. You want to make sure you are getting as much activation as possible so take 3 min recovery. hope this clarifies

You mean the Boston Garden.

I had playoff tickets for the Sixers in 1983. "Fo', fo' and fo'" turned out to be four, five and four.

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"Go yell at an M&M"