For me that's running soley at a heart rate below 149. That's insanely slow. I can't fathom...

Its not for everyone. My MAF pace is 7:30min/mi

---

"Base training is bull shit" - desertdude

I hate going so slow all the time. I've tried it for a few weeks and saw significant improvement. 8:30 miles to 7:50 miles on same HR after 4 weeks... After the 4 weeks I got really impatient with the program due to running slow all the time. You really got to stay patient and trust the program. It's a great way to safely build mileage. Like someone mentioned, it's not for everyone.

I had a lot of success with it this year, started in January at around 10 minute miles after 4 months of pure MAF at around 10 - 15 hour weeks I went to around to an 8:20 mile average. In this time I PR'D in the marathon by a minute (no taper and max mpw was 40) and the next weekend took 25 minutes off a 50k I ran the prior year.
At a certain point you will plateau (I didn't personally but wasn't too anal about testing on a track) at which point you add intensity. IMO it's great if your A races are Ironmans and Ultramarathons but if you're competing in OLY and Half marathons I'd find a different method.

I will happily guinea pig this. Although is already tested and true. But for or sake. I use BarryP plan, at 30 mi/wk right now. So medium run of 6mi today. I'll stay at our below 149 and report my Orr mile pace. For all intents and purposes, I should be perfect candidate for this. Newer athlete (first year), slow with excess body fat. In physical composition as a result of metabolic gains and pace should both increase substantially. Sure diet we'll be the n1, but i should do stay in a specific caloric range with success thus far, so this should only help it. Well see where were at in 30 days!

Is it best to do this type of training in the winter or in a controlled enviroment? I ask only becasue it gets hot here in the Southeast. It can tough to get the HR that low in the heat and humidity.

What is the BarryP method? Where can I find more info on that? My main goal is to build a big base in order to get back into shape for 70.3/140.6 in 2016/2017.

---

J. Tyler Pate

This is a great way to build aerobic base. You need to be patient and don't expect quick results in a few weeks. Back when I started, I was a 12 min/mile and am now down to a 9 min/mile at <150 HR. I'm still slow, but am improving and was never a good runner to begin with.

If Dr. Phil's program is still based o 180-age to develop training pace then it's still a Bu!! Sh!t program. I know that Phil claims to have a Dr. of Chiropractic but have never been able to find where that was received. His apparent lack of knowledge regarding human heart rates is incredibly scary. Perhaps a better way to go about a similar method without even using a HRM would be something like " do a ton of very easy running for several months before you even think about ramping things up at all. "

YMMV,

Hugh

---

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

I would imagine heat is irrelevant. The concept of working in heart rate zones is that the body responds different ways at different heart rates. Specifically in how and what it utilizes for energy and the resulting efficiency gains. So the conditions that make you reach a certain heart rate really are irrelevant so long as you're in the prescribed zone.

Search the forum for Barry P. Super short is that volume is king at a slow pace as prescribed by MAF. You run 6 days a week. Slowly (relatively speaking) with small weekly volume increases. Only after a substantial base is built do you consider speed work and even then its just one key session and super short in length. It's similar to MAF in all z2 volume.

I historically have issues with runners knee and successfully made my way injury free through my first 70.3 this spring using MAF training for the first 12 weeks of my 18 weeks of dedicated training. The only exceptions were two races that I ran during my training period and in the last few weeks before tapering (peak training) I did some race pace miles in the middle of my long run. Some of my race pace miles were downhill so I could run faster and keep my HR low. I'm the definition of middle of the pack and I think it is a great program and will go back to it during the off season.

It is much more challenging now that summer heat is here, but it is also racing season so I figure my base isn't going to improve a heck of a lot for the remainder of the season so I incorporate more speed in my running anyway and don't worry about MAF quite as much.

I do.it off season. When I start 9:35 pace by April 8:30 pace, then I can run a 7:30 or faster in oly. distance. No injuries and always feel great. This year was the exception I did speed work this winter I am slower and had injuries.

I did over six months during a season when I had no races due to work and travel. I saw no improvement in my time / km at various heart rates, in fact at anearobic levels I lost a lot of capability. I couldn't push hard for more than five minutes or so without cracking. If anything my performance degraded.

I think months of consistent varied training brings performance, bit like a balanced diet is healthy. My n+1 anyway

I'm not a subscriber to the MAF method but familiar with it.

I found your comment interesting though. I'm in the same ballpark as you (age 30)...so my MAF HR would be 150 (180 - age)...My average HR on steady (6 - 10 miles) runs which makes up the majority of my run training is typically 135-140 which yields about an average pace of 7:15 min/mi...This isn't too taxing but allows me to run consistently 6-7x per week. It is by no means is easy and throwing in more intensity tends to cause more damage/soreness than I feel is necessary

Just curious to find out more info on what your training load is like and what you are training for

It's interesting to me that you guys can run such a faster pace at a lower heart rate. I get into the 150-165 range fairly easily at around 9:45-10:00. But like I said, I'm 6'1" and 225 currently. Down from 250 so making improvements, but my weight is not doing me any favors in my running gains.

not to derail, but that reminds me during a fast part of the run at Frantfurt, they said that Frodo's heart rate was at 135!

While I do not train by HR, the 180-age thing puts me right at Daniels easy pace.

I think I'm an anomaly though

jaretj

Gotcha...I just read your more recent posts in the thread and it makes more sense now. I'm not an expert on HR and actually just recently started tracking it.

I ran a hard 10k brick after a 2hr ride on Saturday that put me in the pain cave and my HR was still only in the high 140s...My first thought after reading your post was "I could not fathom running above MAF HR" or at least with any consistency.

HR is highly individual and probably a flaw in the 180 - age equation. Good luck to you

I have used MAF training myself and on a few folks I coach as well. It does take a full commitment that many type A athletes simply can't muster. You should be able to see consistent results testing about every 5-6 weeks. If you are not seeing an increase in speed at the same HR you are probably going out at a higher HR than you should. People talk about a "MAF Range" often, like you can somehow add 10 beats to it and still see the same results. You can't really apply that until you are well into a MAF block (8-10 weeks of focused efforts at your target HR). Once well into such a training block, I have had athletes add up to about 10BPM and still see speed at MAF coming down.

Keep in mind that MAF is not short for Maffatone. It means, Maximum Aerobic Function. It's named for how large of a base you build, not the dude who invented it.

Your application of the training will determine your measure of success. If you do a huge MAF block and no speed work, then expect to kill it in the last 3K of an olympic tri, you will be pissed. However, if you have struggled with your run at IM and ended up walking the last 10 miles in the past, you will enjoy running the entire time at a good clip.

Most of the people I have applied the training to with success are either long course triathletes or ultra-runners. I don't use it much at all for short course athletes, unless they are seasoned athletes that have stagnated using traditional periodized methods. Everyone will respond differently, give in 6-8 weeks and if you see no difference in your testing times, I would seek another method to kick start your return to enjoyment of racing.

---

Dave Stark
dreamcatcher@astound.net
USAC & USAT level 2 certified coach

Lots of people seem to equate the Maffetone method of running at 150bpm all the time. Here's a link to his site: http://philmaffetone.com/180-formula/. It is a calculation not a static number.

That said I am neither a proponent nor opponent of this method of training. It seems a blunt instrument to me but if you're looking to build a solid running base it might work for you

Quote:

You can't really apply that until you are well into a MAF block (8-10 weeks of focused efforts at your target HR)

Do you have a link to what a block looks like? I've searched and all I can find is how to get the HR, but nothing about how to structure workouts.

What an absolute mind f@#$ that first run at 150bpm was. Now I'm reaching out for help bc I managed to convince myself over the course of the last 80 minutes that I need to go see a cardiologist STAT.

Background on me. 31 years old. 6'1". 225 lbs. Body Fat % is prob around 21-22%. Jan 2014 I quit smoking after a pack/day habit for over 10 years. Crappy diet, dabbled in some other bad stuff, drank a lot. 265-275 at my heaviest. Immediately after quitting smoking I start riding my bike semi seriously. In May I start training for a half marathon. No clue what I was doing, but I ran 4x a week and managed a respectable 2:06 in November in Philly. Decide after that race I'll pick up tri training. Bust my ass for the last 9 months. Albeit, running the entire time mostly in the 160-175bpm range. Apparently clueless. 2 weeks out from my first 70.3 (Challenge AC last Sunday) I was easily running 9:00/mi for a 10 mi run and neg splitting the back 3 mi. But in the 165-175 bpm range. Worth mentioning that I NEVER get my heart rate up that high on the bike. Do mostly indoor trainer work with Trainer Road. Usually 150-155 is where my heart rate maxes on difficult intervals. Maybe 160 once in a while. Completed 70.3 in a crappy time, had a flat cost me 30 minutes on the bike (don't ask) and run was slower than I wanted it to be, 2:30. Came in just under 7:00, which I was unhappy with, goal was 6:00, but oh well.

Fast forward to today. Granted it is 90 deg in Philly and I did run basically unshaded. BUT. That was the SLOWEST run of my entire life. Ever. I couldn't keep my HR under 150. I sat around 152 the majority of the run. While averaging 13:00/mi. WTF????? Splits were something like 11:30, 12:15, 13:30, 14:15, 14:12, 13:40. I felt like I was just power walking. I manually checked my HR twice to make sure my 910 wasn't off somehow. So here are the conclusions I've drawn/questions I hope you guys can help me answer.

1. I need to go see a doctor immediately. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. Go and go fast bc my heart's broken.

2. For the last 9 months I unknowingly did ALL of my run work in zone 4 with a little zone 3 and increased my upper end threshold levels without doing a damn thing for my aerobic capabilities. But is that even possible? Can I go from sedentary to running a half marathon and doing a 70.3 and still have such horrid aerobic levels?

3. I am still over weight. The extra 40lbs (Doc said during my physical I should be at 185) is a killer on the run, more so then in the pool or on the bike. This just isn't going to get much better until the excess fat comes off and the excess fat does not come off when you're working at threshold levels instead of aerobic levels. Yes calories in versus calories out (already got hammered on another thread about that topic) but my understanding is that your body is better at burning fat at an aerobic level of activity as opposed to anaerobic. Suck it up, do this dreadfully slow runs and the fat will burn off and speed will increase. Assuming diet is reasonable and I am burning more calories than I'm consuming.

I mean, is this even conceivable? I more or less need to spend the next 9 months just trotting along at a walking pace until my aerobic abilities catch up? I can't begin to comprehend how cutting my average mile time by 4-5 min/mile is going to result in fitness gains. That's a tough pill to swallow. The heat today, especially as a bigger guy, certainly played a huge roll. Totally possible that I'd normally be around 11:00-12:00/mi in more optimal conditions. Finally, running at that slow ass pace actually was harder on my legs. Prob due to a substantially increased number of steps. So do I need to back volume down too? Bc an 80min 6mi run was one of the most boring and frustrating activities of my entire life.

I know this is slightly off topic but I'm hoping someone is going to tell me this method will work and/or to get my ass to a doctor yesterday. Thanks in advance for anyone who takes the time to answer this stuff!

Did MAF for about 3 years and got in the best long course shape of my life. it's about being patient and letting your body come around when it feels like it. Try it for 6 months and see what comes of it. But a month is not that long for anything to come into form.

If you're going to give it a try, really go balls deep.

Do it until you stop improving. Training is about progress. If you are getting faster at 150HR week after week, why in the world would you stop? Wait until you plateau for a month, then mix in some speed.

Heat is a huge factor in HR and RPE, but not a reason to go over 150 if that is what you are trying to stick with.

If you want to cheat and go harder, do it on the bike or swim. Or mix in some strides.

Humble-brags are the worst. I will spare you the specifics. It works for me well.

I'm in the same place. Paces the past few years have been in the 8's with a HR in the high 160's. I'm now slowing down to 10ish @ 150. I'm going to give it a month or two and see if I notice any difference. I would love to be down into the low 9's / high 8's @ 150 by IMFL in November. But yes, it feels painfully slow.