Instead of testing FTP ... you'd be better invested in doing a 5 hour simulation ride with race fueling plan (w/ maybe 1 stop for fluids) done @ 70% of current FTP and evaluate if that effort is reasonable output to get off the bike and run "well" for 26.2 miles.

Testing FTP @ 1 week out won't provide valuable feedback (or training stimulus) that will positively impact your race

Best of Luck

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Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com

Dave, would you have any concerns with accumulated fatigue during that simulation? Obviously on race day you are tapered and, theoretically, at peak fitness.

While I don't think it has to be a "one or the other proposition" and definitely think that the type of ride you suggest should be done in the weeks leading up to an IM, I'm very curious to hear others' take on this and your assertion that doing a final FTP test to use as an IM pace indicator has no value.

If I were you, I would not do another FTP test before an August IM (4-8 weeks from now). I am not an expert or a coach, so you can take this with a grain of salt, but here is my philosophy:

Your power target for your IM should be a number that you can maintain for 5-6 hours and still run a solid marathon afterwards. 70% of FTP is a good guideline as a place for you to start, but you should find the exact number during race simulations. Most people use a 20 or 30 min test to determine FTP. Using a 30 minute test to determine the power your should hold for 5-6 hours is problematic. Find your race power through trial and error on your long ride/brick days.

Additionally, one of the problems with testing 2 weeks out and then determining your race power based on that test is that you have done little or no training at your new race power. You will want to get multiple long rides in at your race power before your IM so you know you can handle that power and still run afterwords.

I should have clarified ... do that session @ 3-4 weeks out ... 1 week would be a disaster for many ;-)

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Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com

a workout like what Dave suggested has way more value for IM training. if you're adjusting your race wattage because of a 20min test 2 weeks out of an IM, you're doing it wrong. "FTP" is relatively irrelevant, and a few high level pros don't actually even know what their FTP really is. what they know (and what's more important to know) is how hard can they ride for ~4.5hrs and still have an effective run.

In my mind, it is definitely one and not the other. Personally I would never test an athlete (FTP anyway) 2 weeks before an IM :

1) It has the potential to be a psychological train wreck for the athlete
2) See TennesseeJed's final paragraph in his post above ... it sums up one of my beliefs of why there is no value in it
Best,

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Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com

Thanks all. This makes perfect sense.

So to keep the conversation going. Say I do a few 4 - 5 hour rides at a set power in the last 4 - 6 weeks of training. Maybe hold back a bit one week, push it a bit the next to see how things feel and then figure out a solid number to go for during IM. However that may be with a bit of fatigue in the legs. With a good tapper could I estimate how much more I might be able to push? Maybe on fresh legs I could go 5 watts higher?

I know there probably isn't an exact answer for this, but just curious on thoughts from those with more experience. Even though I'm 6 weeks out from the event (IMMT) I'm obviously starting to obsess about minor details that probably won't really matter in my 11 hour day (hopefully a bit less than 11 hours!).

I'm curious about this as well, but my guess would be to race at the level that felt reasonable in training and then push the 2nd half of the run if you have anything left. Remember that you've got a big swim in ahead of the ride on race day.

You could do maybe 2 simulation ride BUT 4:00 not long enough ... for example, if you thought you were going to be on course for 5:30 I would advise something like 15min easy start & finish then the middle 5:00 as close to "projected race effort as possible" ... I have different ways to skin the cat like: 5 x 55min @ IM / 5min cruise OR 10 x ?? etc etc. it does take a bit of mental pressure off and accounts for general fatigue YET still gives a very good account of projected power

KEYS ... do not shoot for a target number ( say 210w because that is 70% of 300w FTP ) ... shoot for a target bin (say 195 - 225) then see where your NP falls for the ride OR for the segmented intervals. Lets say at 3 weeks out your NP (for the 5hr segment or for the long intervals) ends up at 210 and you think that is consistent with ability to "run well" after
- DO NOT elevate your target for fresh legs ... se that cushion to get of the bike preserving your ability to run.
- Use the 210 as wattage ceiling on the flats (as in NEVER EVER go over) ... set a ceiling for hills / climbs ... set a strategy for downhills / tailwinds etc.
- Make sure your target power bins allign with your current run fitness / experience / race history

Cheers,

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Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com

What an excellent reply. Totally agree.

what TennesseeJed said.

I have my highest FTP of the year in the winter every year, and race pretty fast with a FTP 12-15% off my best. Personally I cannot mainatin a tip-top FTP and have good 5 hour power and run 40 miles a week all at the some time. Personal best FTP is not a great indicator of IM performance. X% of FTP for pacing will get you in trouble, likely on the run, promise you that. Just look at HR and power on ALL your long rides. You will likey be able to hold a slightly higher HR and power in your race. Basically if you do 6 long rides in the last nine weeks beofre your race, maybe 5-8 beats higher and 5% higher power is somethong to use as a CEILING.

So do you taper for this 5 hour ride at race intensity? I couldn't imagine ever doing something like that.

I've done plenty of 2-3 hour efforts at IM power broken within rides to get a feel for what works but 5 hours at ironman power in the middle of a training block with accumulated fatigue sounds like a mental milkshake waiting to happen.

I think you're better off getting a feel for what it feels like with plenty of 30min 45min 1 hour 2 hour efforts spread into long rides. Best simulation ride I did to get a feel for ironman pacing was 5 weeks out. 150k with the last 2 hours at racepace then 18k run off at ironman pace. With the accumulated fatigue from weekly training that you're carrying this put me in a great heads pace for raceday.

Brett ... some thoughts

* I wouldn't "taper" for it but one could take a couple lighter days leading in to it if they needed
* As i mentioned above if the fatigue or mental pressure to do that session is too much it could be done on long intervals of 5 x (55min @ IM / 5min easy) OR some variation of Intervals ... use the work intervals to guide with goal pacing
* My take (for most) is if one needs to taper for that session OR can't hold goal IM power, for at least the long intervals, one should consider lowering goal power OR your training load / ability to recover day to day is simply too high

NOTE: I.E. - 2:00 @ IM effort in the middle of a 4-5hr long ride should be a "cake walk"

Best,

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Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com

Listen to Dave. Dave gives very sound advice. Dave's advice will give you the best shot at an overall great day. Remember, triathlon isn't about the bike split, it's about the combined time from start to finish across all 3 disciplines and if you over bike you end up walking the run.
Brett? balked at the simulation ride.....if you can't pull off a ride like that during your build/peak of training, how in the world do you think you'll be able to run 26.2 miles after you do have to finish a 112 mile ride.
3-4 hour training rides don't take you deep enough to expose the faults in your plan. Do the 5-6 hour rides and see how the power level feels in that last hour, and remember there's a marathon to run yet. Use the taper advantage to get you through the fact that during these simulation rides, you didn't swim 2.4 miles before hopping on your bike. Swimming 2.4 miles WILL impact your day.

I also have to join in amongst the critics towards recommending a 5h ride at race pace. I think it is too tough, or indicative of that the rest of the training is too easy. Surely, IM power should be pretty easy but not easypace by my definition. Riding at 5h at IM-pace is a very tough day and would require rest both before and after, which might compromise overall adaptation.

What I do is that I test my athletes FTP about 5-7 weeks prior to the race, use these zones as training zones and depending on their individual profile (sprinty vs ultra for example) and expected finish time (Best bike split) I give a raceplan with 10w 'wiggle room'. For example, an athlete that tests 280w FTP and has an expected bike split of 4:50 would be able to ride and IF of .71-75, so 200-210w. In training there would have been several 60-120 minute long stretches at the upper end of this, after a few more qualitative efforts at or above FTP. The easy riding I would expect to be slightly lower, 180-190w. That's still close enough to be very specific to IM pace and allows for more hours trained and less mental fatigue from always trying to stay on top of things on your distance rides.

Something to remember as well, when training for an ironman one does not expect to raise FTP a whole lot and it's also possible that you might under perform at an FTP test (using the 20 min approach) when in good IM-shape. So while I dont agree with the "just ride for 5h at IM-power"-approach, basing IM-power of 1x FTP test a few days before the race probably aint the smartest thing either. Either way you may chose, remember that it's better to err on the low side. 5w lower might mean 3 min lost on the bike but 15 mins won on the run.

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Endurance coach | Physiotherapist (primary care) | Bikefitter | Swede