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Re: Lance accepts lifetime ban - See ya [Cake] [ In reply to ]
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Cake wrote:
Rocky M wrote:
Does it clean up cycling & sport? No.

Think about it. A cheater got caught, years after the event, and gets his titles and his credibility stripped. It shows other potential cheaters that it will not be worth it and will help other athletes to make the choice to race clean and not become a massive fuckin douche bag like Lance Armstrong.

Does it clean up cycling & sport.. I would say its a step in the right direction. Rome wasn't built in a day and all that.

What about the 10 other cheaters that got caught in this investigation but are literally racing today? Does it send a good message that if you are cheating but not the biggest winner of all time you are safe, but cheat and win grand tours and you are done for life?

I am not sure that this prosecution/conviction/admission is a very big deterent. One cheating cyclist banned, 10 cheating cyclists riding slapped on wrist.

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Re: Lance accepts lifetime ban - See ya [Billabong] [ In reply to ]
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Billabong wrote:
drn92 wrote:
Guilty or not, this seems like a witch hunt and a waste of time. Who gets the titles if he is stripped? At the end of the day, he finished first in 7 TdF's after overcoming cancer. To me that is still an inspirational story.

Seems like the USADA should be spending their time and money catching current dopers.

drn92


True but an innocent man does not quit the fight

Like I said, guilty or not this is a witch hunt. In my opinion, the USADA now has the responsibility to investigate every rider in those 7 TdF's and determine the "one" that did not cheat or use PED's so that the true overall champion can be crowned. Simply stripping Lance of his titles is too easy and if they stop there then, again in my opinion, shows the true nature of their investigation (witch hunt).

At the end of the day, Lance passed all the drug tests (as far as I know), and probably more tests than the riders he faced and beat. The playing field is stacked against him and I do not blame him for telling the USADA to pound sand.

drn92
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Re: Lance accepts lifetime ban - See ya [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Kafka would have been proud.

To be found guilty by an individual, acting for an agency that did not exist when he was racing, which has been repudiated by the very Professional association governing his sport.

Guilty on the say so of people who failed the very drug testing procedures that he did not. By, once again, an agency that does not find it necessary to present it's evidence.

Murderers get a better process and a safer hearing.

A proud day for jurisprudence today.

Is he guilty?, it no longer matters.
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Re: Lance accepts lifetime ban - See ya [drn92] [ In reply to ]
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I would think non-US athletes have nothing to do with USADA.
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Re: Lance accepts lifetime ban - See ya [phog] [ In reply to ]
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Best post of all of them, by far.

-Robert

"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank
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Re: Lance accepts lifetime ban - See ya [Billabong] [ In reply to ]
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I'm over this thing by now and am about 90% sure he doped. But I was asked this last night..."At this point, is there anything Lance could do to prove to you that he was clean?" Quite honestly, I don't think so. And I don't think he can prove that to anyone at USADA either. Something is wrong with this scenario.

My fear is that this lack of process will only lead to more people to stand up around him, more fanboys, etc. because it certainly has not been a fair process.
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Re: Lance accepts lifetime ban - See ya [nchristi] [ In reply to ]
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nchristi wrote:
I would think non-US athletes have nothing to do with USADA.

I think, that by pursuing this case, the USADA needs to accept the responsibility of determining the true winners. They need to take ownership of the total process, not just pursuing Lance.

drn92
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Re: Lance accepts lifetime ban - See ya [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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I admit to not knowing/ understanding all of the details, but:

Why lifetime ban?

Other dudes get caught for PEDs, do their best to cover it up, get caught, and receive a 2-year suspension.






Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/
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Re: Lance accepts lifetime ban - See ya [lmicah3] [ In reply to ]
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Could he not face his accusers and go toe to toe with the evidence that was presented? IE, sit down and explain why Hincapie or Vaughters or whatever guy was testifying was actually lying and not just "out to get Lance".


But Lance seemingly didnt want to do that. Which for Lance it's the best move there was, because he gets to keep this cloke (sp) of invincibility about him, and he still gets to control basically his own image. He can shout that USADA was just a witch hunt, and that all these other dopers were simply doing this to save face for themselves. So, yes I think there was things Lance could have done once and for all, to 100% prove either way. Now, both sides get to kinda claim victory and push their own agendas.

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Re: Cheater banned from sport for cheating [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Serious question: did Merchx do things like bridge to a break away while in the yellow jersey? Chasing down Simeoni is just one example of LA's aggressive tendencies. Merckx earned his nickname, but I thought it was more of a compliment to his talent rather than a comment on his personality.

Lots of successful people are successful, in part, because they are ruthless. Some of LA's ruthlessness has been visible to cycling fans. Could this maybe explain why Merckx is viewed as a cycling hero who happened to fail a test and LA is, to some, a villain? Again, it's a serious question. I'm not incredibly well versed in cycling history.
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Re: Lance accepts lifetime ban - See ya [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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The lifetime ban tells me it was way above and beyond simple doping. It's probably something like he was integral to either a team-wide of program wide doping program. I could easily see him pulling strings to have all the postal riders on a doping program.
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Re: Lance accepts lifetime ban - See ya [phog] [ In reply to ]
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phog wrote:
Kafka would have been proud.

To be found guilty by an individual, acting for an agency that did not exist when he was racing, which has been repudiated by the very Professional association governing his sport.

Guilty on the say so of people who failed the very drug testing procedures that he did not. By, once again, an agency that does not find it necessary to present it's evidence.

Murderers get a better process and a safer hearing.





Couldn't agree more.
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Re: Lance accepts lifetime ban - See ya [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Guilty plea.

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Re: Lance accepts lifetime ban - See ya [phog] [ In reply to ]
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phog wrote:
Kafka would have been proud.

To be found guilty by an individual, acting for an agency that did not exist when he was racing, which has been repudiated by the very Professional association governing his sport.

Guilty on the say so of people who failed the very drug testing procedures that he did not. By, once again, an agency that does not find it necessary to present it's evidence.

Murderers get a better process and a safer hearing.

A proud day for jurisprudence today.

Is he guilty?, it no longer matters.

That sums it up.
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Re: Cheater banned from sport for cheating [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
I take this from Armstrong as an admission that he played on a level playing field with his peers and won. I don't need to like the scenario, but I accept it.

It's not a level playing field even when lots of people are doping because PEDs can have different effects on individuals depending on their physiology. Vaughters explains it pretty well in this interview:

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One of the rationalizations made for doping is that if everyone’s doing it, it’s a level playing field. People use that to argue that doping should be legal. Should it? Would that actually make a level field?
No. There are a few arguments on that. I’ll start with physiological and we’ll go to psychological. Physiologically, let’s go with oxygen vector doping. Humans have a variety of natural red blood cell counts. Some people have a hematocrit of 36 naturally, some people have a 52. Me, in an untrained state, riding 100k a week, I’m more—I’m like 53.

You needed a TUE [therapuetic use exemption—a certificate the UCI uses to allow something that would otherwise result in a positive test or health flag] to compete once they put in the [maximum hematocrit] 50-percent rule, right? Yeah, I submitted blood records back to my pediatric days. But for EPO, the person who’s at 36, whether there’s a 50 percent limit or not is irrelevant because the biggest improvement is in the low end, that thin blood range. That person, when they’re out training every day, their body is starved for oxygen and becomes extremely efficient at pulling oxygen from not very much hemoglobin. So you dump a big amount of red cells in that person who’s already very efficient and whoa! Are they going to go fast. Conversely you take a person at 47 and do the same thing. And let’s go to 60, say the limit isn’t 50 but that the limit is that you don’t stroke out and die. That person is not going to experience anywhere close to the difference. So people say, ‘Yeah, but that’s equalizing it out.’ But imagine the guys at 36 and 47 have exactly the same VO2 at threshold and they are neck-and-neck competitors their whole life, and one chooses to dope and the other says, ‘Well then I’ll dope too.’ Then one guy is going to go a lot faster and the other guy will go a little faster. And so you have guys that train the same, are very disciplined athletes and physiologically the same but one has a quirk that’s very adaptable to the drug du jour, then all of a sudden your race winner is determined not by who’s the best, some kind of Darwinian selection of who is the strongest and fittest, but whose physiology happened to be compatible with the drug, or to having 50 things in him.

Full interview here: http://www.bicycling.com/print/67431
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Re: Lance accepts lifetime ban - See ya [Cake] [ In reply to ]
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Cake wrote:
Rocky M wrote:
Does it clean up cycling & sport? No.


Think about it. A cheater got caught, years after the event, and gets his titles and his credibility stripped. It shows other potential cheaters that it will not be worth it and will help other athletes to make the choice to race clean and not become a massive fuckin douche bag like Lance Armstrong.

Does it clean up cycling & sport.. I would say its a step in the right direction. Rome wasn't built in a day and all that.

I think this would be true if they were retroactively testing everyone who participated. It's not enough to catch the big dog cheating, you need to bust the guy who finished 35th as well. That would send a real message.
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Re: Lance accepts lifetime ban - See ya [drewbiez] [ In reply to ]
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drewbiez wrote:
silentcs42 wrote:
So when all the dust settles who exactly came out the victor here? Cycling...the USADA...LA...his teammates...the tour...anybody at all...

Pretty much no one. There will be an * next to LA's name in the record books, cycling continues to look even more dirty and douchy, usada and WTC look like huge assholes, and triathlon as a whole loses what could be a REALLY big popularity boost.

I just hope Tejay isn't doping :( My money is on him for the future :)

Good bet. And put some on Joe Dombrowski while you're at it. Dropped Tejay in Cali and may do it again on Flagstaff. 12 seconds back in Colorado and still racing U23.

As for LA, he's cold product. We have clean young bucks coming up in the US of A. Let's light this candle, shall we?
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Re: Lance accepts lifetime ban - See ya [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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He would have been found guilty.

As the USADA had no requirement to abide by any rules the govern jurisprudence and had already found a boatload of people guilty in absentia by association, he could expect nothing more than a guilty verdict. By refusing to go along with their prosecution he will always be able to claim persecution and an unfair justice system.

The population as a whole was already polarized, some frothing at the mouth about his guilt and the rest asking how a man can pass several hundred tests without failure, especially as he was under suspicion and carefully tested with all the technology at their disposal. The same testing procedures that caught those testifying against him.

Besides he would never have won Kona !
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Re: Lance accepts lifetime ban - See ya [phog] [ In reply to ]
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phog wrote:
Besides he would never have won Kona !

Ah yes, finally the REAL reason why he accepted the ban ;)
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Re: Cheater banned from sport for cheating [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Perhaps Lemond gets off the hook....

So you want to get the others and not this guy. Come on, he is as dirty as the rest.

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Re: Lance accepts lifetime ban - See ya [silentcs42] [ In reply to ]
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silentcs42 wrote:
Cake wrote:
Rocky M wrote:
Does it clean up cycling & sport? No.


Think about it. A cheater got caught, years after the event, and gets his titles and his credibility stripped. It shows other potential cheaters that it will not be worth it and will help other athletes to make the choice to race clean and not become a massive fuckin douche bag like Lance Armstrong.

Does it clean up cycling & sport.. I would say its a step in the right direction. Rome wasn't built in a day and all that.


I think this would be true if they were retroactively testing everyone who participated. It's not enough to catch the big dog cheating, you need to bust the guy who finished 35th as well. That would send a real message.

Yes getting everybody would be ideal, if it was possible.

Getting everybody who they can possibly get, including the 'big dog' is the best they can do, and sends a message.
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Re: Cheater banned from sport for cheating [David B] [ In reply to ]
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How does USADA send an athlete (Hope Solo) who failed their drug test weeks before the Olympics to the games? While the whole time chasing Lance with no positive tests? Ridiculous.
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Re: Cheater banned from sport for cheating [Don34one] [ In reply to ]
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Personally, I think that Lance doped just like almost every other top rider of the era. So even playing field since they all were on PEDs.

To me the USADA thing has been a total which hunt and has smelled fishier than a Jersey hooker.
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Re: Lance accepts lifetime ban - See ya [Carl L] [ In reply to ]
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Carl L wrote:
PappaD wrote:
Not sure people like my mother give a rat's ass whether Lance doped or not while she's being treated at the Livestrong Foundation Pain Management Center after beating cancer. On the whole has LA left the world a better place? Yup.


-1

You need to separate Lance's cycling activities from those he has promoted through the success he gained through cycling. I personally think he doped with the rest in the Good Ol' Boys Club, but even I'm not stupid enough to say this most recent turn of events discredits his legacy elsewhere.

You are going to get crucified for your position and you deserve every last bit of it.
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Re: Cheater banned from sport for cheating [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Well said. By the way, how do we know that LeMond didn't dope? For example, look at the 1990 TdF results:

1 Greg LeMond (USA)Z90h 43' 20"2 Claudio Chiappucci (ITA)Carrera Jeans-Vagabond+2' 16"3 Erik Breukink (NED)PDM+2' 29"4 Pedro Delgado (ESP)Banesto+5' 01"5 Marino Lejarreta (ESP)ONCE+5' 05"6 Eduardo Chozas (ESP)ONCE+9' 14"7 Gianni Bugno (ITA)Chateau d'Ax+9' 39"8 Raúl Alcalá (MEX)PDM+11' 14"9 Claude Criquielion (BEL)Lotto-Superclub+12' 04"10 Miguel Indurain (ESP)Banesto+12' 47"

If LeMond didn't dope, he then beat several riders who were at least linked to doping allegations, i.e. Chiappucci (came from nowhere to be a star), Breukink (remember the 1991 TdF), Delgado (positive). This was one the arguments that many people used against Lance Armstrong to support that he used PEDs. Also, in 1989 he beat Fignon (who later admitted to doping) and Delgado.
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